Is this even worth fighting for?

[jamesb]

Is this even worth fighting for?

I dont see why people should have to say anything.

As a personal joke I started this thrad, and people have used it as an oppertunity to attack the Razer boys.

Some of the people who have posted have information that justifies their responses, or their arguements at least, but most people just dont like them.

I think that this thread should be closed before more harm is done.

[tom_b]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Ill second that, James.

P.S. Razer rocks!!

[anukhet]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Personal joke or not, like em or not - no ones laughing and some people have taken it personally especially with some of the stuff thats appeared on this forum written by people, some claiming to be friends, who know exactly why. With friends like that who needs enemies?

Ian, Im really uneasy about saying this but by you talking in riddles youve merely added more fuel to the fire. I can honestly say that Ive avoided speculation (I simply dont know) but its made me more determined to rationalise your stance on this. We all know that RW is in a very precarious situation right now. You dont even have to say I told you so. But you lost that battle - that€™s tough, but the fact is there are a lot more games to play out there.

Youre being asked (nicely) to come out to play before you get left behind!

[jamesb]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Ian is always talkin in riddles.

The fact is, people speculate, and people moan, and people demand answers.... you want the truth?

For whatever reason, Razer boycotted.

Deal with it, it was their choice.

[anukhet]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Me metaphysicist, him ventriloquist. Q.E.D.

[jamesb]

Is this even worth fighting for?

ok,
now Ive lost the ability to read as that made no sense to me.

Ian is away on hols now, so be patient, Im sure hell have more to say when he gets back.
Cheers
James

[Guest]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Half of this thread i dont understand so...

Does this mean Razer will not only not appear in any more championships but live events to?

[matty_haka]

Is this even worth fighting for?

I dont know *Shrugs* Who cares! IMO, anyone who boycotts in this sort of manner is no longer a robot held in high regard by me.

[fluppet]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Time to add my rant to the list.

Matty, youre welcome to your opinion, but my feeling is that if Ian and Simon dont want to enter Razer into a competition for *any* reason, thats their prerogative. Given Razers past record, it seems unlikely that their decision not to enter had anything to do with not wanting to get beaten - Razers taken a beating on a number of occasions in the past. The worst that they could be accused of, if their reason *had* been to avoid getting trashed by a harder robot, is conceding that Razer didnt have a chance of winning - and giving up the world title and not having a chance to compete for the national title are self-inflicted consequence if that were the case.

There have been issues with the rules for season 7, as expressed by other roboteers - and many of those issues I also have concerns with as a future roboteer. If team Razer didnt want to enter under those rules, whether in protest for the good of the community or because they just werent personally prepared to accept fighting under the rules (for financial reasons or otherwise), I dont have a problem with that. The fact that they didnt enter indicates the strength of feeling on the subject - not that I have any beef with other dissenters entering. That for whatever reason their objections werent associated with the almost-boycott of other roboteers is unfortunate, in that it wouldve strengthened the position of both groups, but no-one can claim that there was nothing to which to object, and whatever caused the groups not to get together is water under the bridge now. Im sure the fuss has registered with the decision makers at Mentorn, at least (should there be a next series for it to affect).

Im sure any such major decision has many factors, and Ian (and Simon) are quite within their rights not to make all their personal issues public. I may be *interested* in what exactly happened, but only in a tabloid journalism kind of way, and I dont think theyre under any obligation to say.

For what its worth, even if its just one of many factors, Im grateful to the team for taking a stand - as I am to the group who tried to get Mentorn to change their position. If no roboteer ever objected to Mentorns rules, we wouldnt have the FRA as it exists today. As a future roboteer I have no interest in entering a design into a competition run by Mentorn - and havent had for some years. That anyone is showing the view of the building community is commendable. One group tried to set Mentorn right, but felt obliged to enter for the good of their fans; the Razer team felt it was more important to support other builders by showing the strength of their feeling (if the problem was predominantly financial, it was still a financial objection to the rules, not the tournament), and their absence will have prompted the public to become aware of the problems more than rumours of a boycott would.

There may well be some underlying dissent from those who know more than I do about the situation (and cant say), and ill feeling that the stand against Mentorn didnt present as strong a front as it should have done. Someone may be to blame for that; fine, but thats passed, and - since errors are made (especially in personal communication) when tempers run high - these things happen. So team Razer may or may not be entirely blameless in all things (especially, as accused on some reports, when it comes to their personal skills), but it sounds to me as though most people agree with the overall reason for the boycott, if not the manner in which it was conducted.

Its unfortunate that the team has been somewhat alienated from the community by this situation, but I dont think theres any cause to doubt their intent, and theres never been a reason to doubt the engineering and driving behind Razer itself. Its sad that not everyone in the roboteering community gets along (when most do), but I dont think any less of any team as roboteers because of it.

--
Fluppet

[babeth]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Well stated.

Can we go on with fighting robots instead of persons now ? (The next ones still continuing to moan about Razer may receive a private message from me with a detailed and thorough example of why people should not fight people over this... got it ? After reading said message you are free to pick up and gather the ruins of your ego or personality and be encouraged to get on with your life !!! OK so this is ranting, but hey grow up will you...)

[anukhet]

Is this even worth fighting for?

As a footnote to all this - Ian Lewis no longer sells the Big Issue in the foyer of ASDA. Hes been replaced by someone else who by chance does not look like Simon Scott

[john_frizell]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Andrew,

You said There have been issues with the rules for season 7, as expressed by other roboteers - and many of those issues I also have concerns with as a future roboteer. ...As a future roboteer I have no interest in entering a design into a competition run by Mentorn - and havent had for some years.

As far as I can tell Mentorn are completely out of the Robot Wars business so the question of entering a design into a competition run by Mentorn is not likely to arise.

The rule set used for Series 7 and the FRA rules are very similar. The most important differences betweenthe two rule sets is that the FRA set allows a much wider choice of gas bottles and allow robots without an offensive weapon.

[fluppet]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Sorry, John - I should have been clearer about that, it sounds too much like I have a problem with the FRA as well, and I dont.

With two possible exceptions (the raised voltage limit and the requirement for nonstatic weaponry, neither of which apply to the FRA) I have no problem with the rules for the design of robot permitted at Robot Wars. Neither of those are likely to apply to a robot I build anyway, but that doesnt stop me objecting to the rules. :-)

My rules objections to Robot Wars mostly concern behaviour of the house robots/arena hazards, particularly with respect to treatment of (usually) defeated robots. Ive never seen a copy of the rules which mentions, for example, the mercy clause so I presume theres something (possibly contractual) in addition to the building guides Ive seen posted. The same applies to remuneration. I guess theres an additional set of fight rules, rather than building rules, because Ive not seen a formal description of deadly embraces, maximum holding periods, what constitutes being unreasonably trapped on an arena hazard, and so on - yet these things are, apparently, regulated (if a little loosely).

My understanding - and please forgive me if Ive got the wrong end of the stick on this - is that group(s) of roboteers complaining before season 7 were doing so primarily because of concerns about competitor machines being trashed by the house robots for good television without adequate compensation or means to object.

I see the difference between Robot Wars and the live events as being, primarily, that in Robot Wars if you dont win, theres a sporting chance that youll have to completely rebuild your robot. Live events continue until something terminal breaks - but with a bit of luck itll only be one thing, and after repairs you can fight again another day. If not, hard luck, but at least its a fair fight in which you got trashed. I would enter a live event with the best robot I could build; I would only enter Robot Wars with the best robot I could afford to lose.

I feel that both the fact that people might be put off from entering their best robots (in many cases that means entering *at all*), and that many otherwise competent robots get made incapable of future competition as a result of a trashing by house robots (or at least that time is spent rebuilding them which could have been spent improving the design), are bad things. Bad for Robot Wars itself, bad for the live event scene, bad for the audience who want to take an interest in the engineering effort or support a particular machine, and bad for the roboteers who have spent time, money, blood, sweat and tears on their creations. Whoever at Mentorn decides that destroying machines just for the violence of it is a good thing clearly disagrees with me, whereas I believe my viewpoint is shared by a number of eminent roboteers. The regulations permitting this to take place are what I object to - and what I understand others to object to as well.

Its true that it looks unlikely that Mentorn will be behind season 8/extreme 3/anything else in the immediate future; however these are views Ive held since the early years of (televised) Robot Wars, and I have always made the distinction that Id love to build a combat robot (and probably will, soon) but not to have a house robot dismantle it for me. Therefore out of habit I tend to state the difference, even if it turns out never again to be an issue.

Since Ive always been hard on Mentorn, I should probably say that I know there are competent people responsible for Robot Wars who are sympathetic to the roboteers. However someone somewhere in Mentorn is responsible for the decision to allow these trashings to happen (and the dodgy editing, and the spoilers, and past problems with floor staff, and allowing JP to spout garbage...) so I tend to lay the blame at the company as an entity. Just so people know Im not tarring everyone with the same brush.

It was, however, high time that some roboteers stood up and said we make the show work, and were not happy with our work being trashed just for the sake of someones idea of good TV. Big hand to everyone who did.

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Fluppet

[fluppet]

Is this even worth fighting for?

Er, just in case that wasnt long enough, I should of course say that I greatly enjoy Robot Wars as a programme, and Im a bit wary of doing down Mentorn too much about it (especially when its like speaking ill of the dead). But Id have enjoyed it a heck of a lot more if it was run like an FRA live event with studio lights, and Im just not prepared to put my own handiwork on the line in that way.

(Sorry, Ill shut up now.)

--
Fluppet

[knightrous]

Is this even worth fighting for?

As A Razer Fan, Ive read these huge amount of posts and have had to look at both sides of the stories, and Ive come to post my opinion.

Razer, its a wonderful machine, as many of you have commented, you could say it is one of a kind by form. One of the reasons I back Razer is, because it was one of the last veteran robots from back around Series 2. For its age, it has done what many robots and roboteers have only dreamed of doing. The record is proof of that. I believe Ian and Simon dont think they are gods, but mere mortals like the rest of us. Remember Razer was not always this winning robot like a lot of you think, for the first few seaons of its battling life, it broke down. Many people dubbed it the Unreliable bot.

Now, if the Razer Team no longer want to battle in RobotWars, so be it, stop bitching about it, and all you fanatics out there, stop creating posts saying that Razer will beat all! You are starting to shit people off! But Also, on the same note, I would like to see the guys from the Shredder Team to stop posting childish remarks like big girls they are. I find that a bit below your level guys. I certainly wouldnt even at my mere age of 16 say to you guys You guys suckass, get a decent spinner because I find that morally wrong even if I was joking, its a bit like all the people who always downed Napalm, but as far as I see, Napalm should be commended for their efforts, even if they didnt get through a round. Nothing against you guys from the Shredder Team, but I just think that comment was a bit low.

I just wish for everyone to accept that Razer has finished its RobotWars competition, no more tinking about how it would fair against the new bots or the like. I support Ian and Simons decision, they made it because they wanted to.

As I finish this semi-ranting post, Im just going to say as a verteran Razer fan, Razer will always be the Inspirational figure in my roboteering mind. Plus, even though Razer is now retired from RobotWars, there is always the awesome Warhead in BB! Something that a lot of UK bots wouldnt like

Thank you for at least reading my post, whether you considered it worthy or not.