Power/failsafe LED

[babeth]

Power/failsafe LED

I guess the most prudent thing would be to put it where you can always see it (or almost always). Example: Tough As Nails has one that you can always see glowing no matter if the robot is upside down or not.

[roger_plant]

Power/failsafe LED

I have a new decoder that may solve the POWER/FAILSAFE lights problem.
It is part of my 459 Mhz radio control ststem.
It has two LEDs, one red and one green.

Flashing Red LED means the power is on but no valid radio control signal is being received, steady red means a good signal is being received.

Flashing green means failsafes are not set, steady green means they are set.

This PIC decoder can be programmed (by me) for Futaba PCM signals or standard PPM signals, up to 12 channels.
The PPM version has built in failsafes for all channels.
The PCM version works with the Futaba 6 and 9 channel PCM transmitters.
We are working on a JR PCM compatible version.
It is part of my latest 459 Mhz radio control receiver.
email rp@bigc.moycom.co.uk

[teamchip]

Power/failsafe LED

What will be the price though Roger?

Agreed your UHF systems are excellent but financially only available to teams with lots of dosh.

I have just bought a Muliplex 259mhz Tx and Rx off a model flying friend for £50...hope to have it up and running once I get a minute spare.

Good luck with all your UHF stuff

Tom

[jim]

Power/failsafe LED

With no disrespect to Roger - I think the problem here is with definitions, rather than technology.

The term failsafes are set means nothing to a system such as mine. Fail safe is something I build into a system, not a component. I can understand this in terms of the actual unit called a failsafe but not all robots use these.

What these lights mean needs to be set by the arena operators, not by robot builders, as these are the people who will rely on these lights when its most important. I feel we need more explicit rules for these lights.

[leorcc]

Power/failsafe LED

I agree with Jim, something for the FRA agenda?

[Guest]

Power/failsafe LED

I have 3 leds on gman 2 flashing red for weapons and radio on and a green for the 24v link

[Guest]

Power/failsafe LED

So here we have the problem. On WBC green means failsafes on, on GMan, green means link in...

[babeth]

Power/failsafe LED

Oh dear... well need colour codes... suggestions anyone ?

[Guest]

Power/failsafe LED

...and to make it worse, has anyone checked how many of us roboteers are colourblind? Green LED you live... red your ****ed. What about those of us that cant tell the difference?

Suggestion 1 (could be tricky):

Red (flashing or constant) = link in (required)
Yellow = weapon controller live
Blue = drive controller live
Buzzer = fault (failsafe failure, etc)

Suggestion 2 (slightly more simple):

Label your LEDs

[roger_plant]

Power/failsafe LED

The colours of the indicators are not the main problem when safety is in question.
The only thing that matters is whether the robot is safe or not.
If the power link is IN then the robot is potentially unsafe.
If it is out and the weapons disabled and locked, then it is safe.
A lit LED or other indicator proves only one thing, that the LED works and it has power to it.
It says nothing about the device controlling the LED or its logic state.

We have all seen the car, with its right indicator flashing, turning left.

The same applies to robots, what do you do when the link is in and the lights are off? or the lights are on and the link not in?, both indicate that the robot is unsafe, i.e. in just the same state as a robot with its power link in and without any indicators fitted.

Robot systems are notoriously unreliable at the best of times, even before they are damaged in battle.
Home made or home installed systems to indicate the state of the power or failsafes are just as liable to failure as the robot they are in.

I run a robot event each year here in Somerset and work to the following safety guidelines:-

1. The robot gets a technical inspection to prove it and its failsafes operate correctly when it arrives at my event.
2. It is only powered up and its weapons locks removed when it is in the arena.
3. The arena is strong enough to contain it whatever it may do. If the robot is potentially too powerful for my arena, (such as Hypnodisc), then it does not get powered up.
4.The link is taken out and its weapons made safe before it comes out of the arena.
5. All tests after repairs are done in the arena and are supervised by me or my appointed deputy.
6.At no time is a robot powered up in the pits area.
7.If a robot in the arena does not respond to its controller then it is treated with extreme caution until made safe by some one competent.

If you stick to these rules then you do not need indicators of unknown reliability.

I have no problems getting full insurance cover for my events. The insurance company accepts the above rules and my certificated competence from previous work experience.

This is not meant as any criticism of the FRA rules, I am just pointing out that safety indicators may not be reliable and dont help to make an event safer.

[Guest]

Power/failsafe LED

Yeh lets all spend so much time farting about with flashing lights that the machine ends up looking like a christmas tree and nobody knows what any of it means.

[shredderteam]

Power/failsafe LED

Regarding the power light.

This was introduced for several reasons:

Number one was after a near miss accident at Newark last year, where all present felt that an exterior indication of the link in status of the robot would have stopped it happening.

Number two was as a further exterior indication to arena staff as regards to the status of the robot, a sort of extra caution sign if you like.

Number three was that through sheer familiarity with the machines, a lot of us as roboteers have become increasingly careless with the way we handle them, it was felt by a lot of organisers and roboteers that this light could just be the thing that reminds us, or makes someone close to us prompt us into safe working practices with the robot, and so prevents a nasty accident.

We however are also aware that lights break, and that it shouldnt ever be considered a robot is dead just because the light is off!

As to colour, it doesnt really matter what colour the light is, as long as it comes on as soon as the link is in place and goes off as soon as the link is removed.

The failsafe light is due for a rewrite in the rules and is being moved to advisory status both because of technical difficulties in fitting for some and for the reasons of confusion that many of you have discussed above, it is currently not being enforced by any FRA events.

Hope this clarifies and keep the feedback coming guys.

Sam
FRA safety executive

[big_nipper]

Power/failsafe LED

Does the light have to turn off as soon as the link comes out as at present ours does not it take 5-10 seconds to go out after the link is out?

[roger_plant]

Power/failsafe LED

Sam, I still dont see the need for a power on light.
If the link is in then the robot is active and possibly dangerous, or some parts of it may be.

The link should only be in when the robot is in the arena.

Therefore if the robot is in the arena and its link has been put in then it is dangerous.

If the link is in and the light off then it still potentially dangerous, even more so because if the light aint working then something is damaged.

Surely we dont need a light to remind us that we put the link in 5 minutes ago when the robot was put in the arena.

If a robot stops during a fight and the light is off, then some one may falsely believe that the robot is safe when just the opposite is the true.
It is in an unknown state, which is more dangerous than when working properly.

The roboteer who disarms it should be supervised by your event technical expert.


The failsafe light is also unreliable.

Unless all the failsafe indicators are tested and approved by some agency similar to British Standards i.e. like a car MOT, and NOT damaged then they too are of questionable value.
They would have to be MOT tested again every time they MAY have been damaged.

Such testing by an approved agency would be prohibitively expensive, and the test only valid until the robot next fights or is modified.

If the indicators are not independently tested and we just rely on the roboteer to say that they work OK then they are no more reliable than the robot.
A home built indicator is no more reliable than a home built robot.

I have developed a failsafe indicator as part of my new decoder system, it works 100% in all my tests, but I would not stake my life on it to tell me that a damaged WBC is safe.

I think that the only answer is to get all competitors at an event to sign a disclaimer that they alone are responsible for arming and disarming their robots.

An assessment of the robot builder€™s competence should be part of the technical inspection before the robot is accepted at an event.


If, as an event organiser, you are not satisfied with the robot builder€™s competence to look after any failure then dont let them take part in your event, or have someone on hand who is expert enough to make any robot safe when required.

This expert should be included by name in your insurance policy, just as named first-aiders are in employers liability insurance.

As the event organiser, and therefore the person legally responsible for everyone€™s safety, you always have the option to leave a damaged and very dangerous robot in a closed arena until it runs out of power or gas.

If it on fire it is your decision as to whether to safely extinguish it or not.

[Guest]

Power/failsafe LED

My first event of the new season and with my new power and weapons active lights i and the roaming robots crew new exactly that every thing was powerd up and ready. and i am all for it just as a warning if nothing else