Tool box

[fluppet]

Afternoon all. Time for another of my ridiculously generic and open-ended questions.

This is another one of those things which has been discussed before, but to which I suspect the answer has changed over time.

As the long-suffering members of this forum know, Im at the about-to-build stage for a heavyweight (about being at least a couple of paycheques away). Im trying to strike a balance between not spending more money than I need, and being able to re-use bits (so not buying anything completely useless). Robot bits themselves I can budget for, but Im trying to get a feel of what I need in terms of tools.

What, in hindsight, do people find they need most urgently?

As a starting point, you can assume Ive done a little DIY. I have screwdrivers coming out of my ears, some files, hammers (including the sledge variety), clamps, pliers, a cheapish drill, an even cheaper jig saw and a funny mains powered dremel thing with a bendy nose attachment for delicate work (some chance). Oh, plus some electronics stuff (meters, soldering iron, that kind of jazz - if I need a scope Ill come to work).

Even with optimism, I realise this wont get me far. Im presuming Ill be going down the welding route (I know you can screw things together, but I guess you need a heck of a lot of pre-drilled lumps of metal to repair damage in a hurry, where a welder and a sledgehammer can fix quite a lot). Im also presuming Im not going to be buying titanium any time soon, so MIG will do. (Also Ive never welded anything, but theres an obvious remedy for that.)

So... I need a MIG welder (Im told one which really takes gas, which Ill accept). I guess a tap and die set would be handy? Will I need a band saw, or will a jig saw and a lot of patience do me?

I currently dont have a bench drill, and Im guessing thats fairly high on the priority list, yes? (Preferably one which lets me cut grooves? I cant see a plunge router working with metal.) Possibly also a (small) angle grinder?

As an aside, gears/sprockets. Is there any way to manufacture them without paying somewhere to laser cut them? Just should I need something odd. Im guessing the disc of metal and a while with a file approach is a bit hit and miss?

Finally, lathes. They seem to be popular - although B&Q only seem to hold the wooden variety. Whats the difference? Presumably I dont need something more than 1m long, but beyond that? How much will one help me?

Oh, and before anyone says it, I have goggles (the most important bit of safety equipment as I think Norm says, although I doubt he was using oxyacetaline at the time), gloves, mouth guard, fire extingisher - and MIGs seem to come with face shields. I also have a healthy sense of paranoia around power tools.

Im presuming B&Q (or similar) is going to make a few hundred quid out of me at some point, but Id prefer not to make it more than I need. Yes I know a good quality drill will serve me better, for example, but Ill wait for the cheap one to die first. On the other hand, I dont want to spend a week making something only for someone to say oh, you wanted a... which costs a tenner.

Anyone want to advise me which equipment to kill myself with?

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Fluppet

[storm]

Tool box

Small bench drill - ESSENTIAL - £39.99 from B&Q would suffice to start
Angle Grinder - ESSENTIAL
Decent welder - ESSENTIAL
Tap and Die set - ESSENTIAL

Lathe not essential if you can get odd bits machined by a local engineering company.

Gears and sprockets from from Technobots, or HPC Gears.

If youre after a welder and want something decent, weve got one in the For Sale section Andrew Im sure we could do you a good deal on !

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

[kaideejee]

Tool box

Mr. G.

The bench drill will be useful, but Im guessing youll have trouble finding one that can do grooves. For that youll need a milling machine and theyre mucho wonga.

re: welder. MIG which actually takes gas (as opposed to flux cored) is a good plan, but it might be worth leaving yourself the option of gasless (good for thick metal and welding in a breeze/wind) by buying a good combination machine.

Lathes : Metal (Engineers) lathes are seriously pricy. Wood ones wont do the job - partly something to do with the stresses involved, partly to do with tolerances I reckon.

Saws : Im reliably informed that a jigsaw is a definite only if youve got nothing else option when metal working. Im planning on buying myself an abrasive chopsaw (no room for a bandsaw) then maybe upgrading to aforesaid bandsaw later.

Angle grinder - definitely. And seeing as you can pick up a Bosch 600W 115mm version for sub £30 (green rather than the pro blue but should last anyway) theres no excuse to get a crappy one - unless you want a 9 one. 115mm is a handy size as theyre cheap, have lots of accessories, and the accessories tend to be cheap too.

B&Q probably isnt your best option. For a look at lathes and milling machines try http://www.chronos.ltd.uk>Chronos

[blazerbotics]

Tool box

A lathe, altough handy, isnt at a high priority. stuff i can think of, that will almost certainly (some of which you have);

General Tools (screwdrivers, pliers. files etc)
Angle grinder (a must if welding)
MIG welder
Jigsaw
Hacksaw (with good blades, cutting through 6mm S-Steel with a blunt blade takes along time)
Good pistol drill (cheap ones tend to burn out quickly, we blew two up when making Merlin so just bought a cheap Bosch and had no probs.)
Hammers (of all sizes, bigger = better)
Basic electronic stuff (meters, irons etc)
Good set of spanners and allen keys
Good set of drill bits (cheap ones tend to blunt easily)
Set of taps
Big vice and work surface
Lots of gaffa (its even needed when building).
Lots of pencils (you will be amazed how many you loose!).
Bench Drill (saves trying to drill a straight hole by hand, you can cheap ones for about £35).

Theres alot ive forgotten.

In our experience it doesnt pay to buy cheap stuff, you will end up having to replace it at some point. You might save yourself £10, but the it could break the night before an event leaving you stumped! Some items that you wont use as much, you can get away with cheaper stuff.

[babeth]

Tool box

Steel-nosed workmans shoes of good quality. They will protect some of the most vulnerable parts of your body.

Gloves. For welding, grinding and handling sharp parts.

Fire extinguisher.

It is not only the tools you have to think about:
Make sure your workplace is well ventilated and can be cleaned easily.
Make/acquire sturdy benches and cupboards for your stuff.
Dont forget to have enough power outlets so that you can reduce the amount of cables that you can trip over or accidently damage.
Keep a tidy workplace with all your tools within easy and visible reach.

By the way... your posting is not ridiculous. It is good common sense and may benefit others.

[fwsorg]

Tool box

A general reflection on some of the stuff that has been said:

Lathes and Mills- stay away from the clarke stuff- or rather the generic chinese mills and lathes that have everyone stick stuck on them- theyre junk out of the box. If you have time and machining skill, you can turn them into a project and get quite a capable machine, but I dont think theyre really worth the effort if you want to get a tool ready to make robots.

If you do want a lathe and/or mill (Im going to go against the grain and say I find milling more useful than turning when it comes to making robots) then get yourself a proper, good, second hand one form somewhere like G and M (http://www.gandmtools.co.ukhttp://www.gandmtools.co.uk). Myford Super 7s are great great machines, and are so popular that youll have no problem getting spares or compatible accessories for them. A good Brideport style mill is also a boon. But as stated, these are serious workshop tools, and by no means necessary as you realise.

Welders- youre right in terms of welder and hammer being gods gift to high speed fixing. A very workshwhile investent. Ask the local pub for some CO2 bottles, dont use the feeble and vasty overpriced disposable bottles. The Pub bottles last infinatelly longer, and are about £1 for a re-fill.

Saws- theres a generic metal cutting bandsaw that is a great addition to a workshop- one of these combined with a welder and angle grinder means youll have a decent box section steel chassis put together in no time.

Drill press: definatelly. Get some decent sharp drills (Cobalts are great- slightly more expensive, but last longer, and more future proof should you start using Stainless and Ti and any of the newer substances like NanoFlex).

Not mentioned yet- a decent scribe, combination square set, Calipers and micrometer (http://www.chronos.ltd.ukwww.chronos.ltd.uk is the place to go for that kind of stuff) A good set of measuring and marking up tools are essential.

Tap and Die set- essential.

Decent work bench and good vice are essential too.

Its very true to say with tools that you get what you pay for. So buy slowly and when you need it, so you can get the best you can afford.

Ed

[swanaldo]

Tool box

GAFFA TAPE

[fluppet]

Tool box

Thank you, all (not to stop the discussion if people have extra recommendations for me).

Ed - sorry, cant see a MIG on your site. More info? B&Q seem to cope with cheap ones at around 150 quid, up to about 220. Not that B&Q is necessarily my source, Im just next door to one so I went around to get an idea of prices.

Unpleasant news about milling machines and metal lathes. Neither strike me as advanced technology, at least if Im not talking about electronic drive. I was kind of hoping a milling machine could be emulated by the base movement leeway on a bench drill, and that a small metal lathe requires a lot less raw material than something for making table legs (unless Im doing something to a *really* big axle). Naive? Sigh. The Myford 7 looks a tad bigger than I was anticipating. :-)

Kev - can you advise me where to look for welding courses? (Ive read a book on it, but I guess that helps me only in a very limited manner).

And thanks for the support, Babeth. :-) Ill try to ask more specific questions when I dont think anyone else can use the answers!

Presumably lathes mainly come in useful on axles and the occasional ram. How much is it possible to work around not having one, and how essential is machine shop access otherwise?

Finally, anyone care to comment further on my DIY gears question? 99% of the time I can use off the shelf, but Im curious whether theres a way forward if I want to do anything weird. (No, Im not sure what yet).

This is a little bit prompted by Mike saying to me do you have a lathe? and, after the negative answer, okay, get a pre-made gearbox then. Although I have other needs for weird gears too.

Thanks again, all.

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Fluppet

[Guest]

Tool box

http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/discus/messages/89/1641.html?1078923140http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/disc...tml?1078923140

[fluppet]

Tool box

Oh *this* for sale section (as opposed to the Storm one). Me stoopid.

Thanks Christian!

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Fluppet

[fwsorg]

Tool box

Myford 7s are small by most standards :-)

Certainly there have been many robots made without ever seeing a machine tool. I would consider a mill and lathe to be a very worthwhile investment from the point of view of getting a workshop that you can use for everything. If the objective is to build a robot, then getting the precision bits made by someone else is your best bet. As for gears- its one of those difficult answers- the stiffer and more accuratelly the gear box is, the better the performance youll get. I would recommend getting a couple of gearbox plates machined up- it should be too expensive as its a fiarly simple operation on a mill. It really is worth doing it properly.

[jim]

Tool box

A pillar drill is definitely very useful. I bought one of the £40 ones from B&Q and was surprised by how sturdy it was (and that its still working over a year later). I cant use it now and Im finding it a struggle to work without it. They probably can be made to work as a milling machine but youd have to take it slowly as theyre not meant to handle radial (?) loads, and the cost of an XY table might be quite high compared to the cost of a dedicated milling machine.

If you dont have one then I would recommend getting a multitool such as a Leatherman. Some of the cheaper imitations are good, too. Theyre very convenient especially when you get to an event.

[fluppet]

Tool box

Eddy: thanks. Ill try to find somewhere and budget accordingly.

Jim: is a pillar drill different from a bench drill? (Spot the newbie.) Definitely about the taking it slowly, but the XY table was what I was thinking of as a pseudo-mill. Ill look into it.

I have a cheap multitool (possibly I should consider investing in one where the pliers dont slip over each other), plus some scary Swiss army knives, which are surprisingly useful between them. Ill have to peer closely at the pits in Debenham and try to get a feel for what equipment is in use at the time. I know theres a welding area at most events - I presume a real workshop is out of the question, so any drilling has to happen hand-held?

Cheers for the feedback,

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Fluppet

[jim]

Tool box

As far as Im aware a bench drill, pillar drill and drill press are all the same thing, although a bench drill will be small enough to fit on a bench, while a pillar drill might be free standing. Mines a bench top model.

[fluppet]

Tool box

:-) Cheers. I know what I mean, I just dont know what its called.

(Mind you, if the garden centres invent grass hook because they cant work out what a sickle is, I can see myself not being the only blank face around B&Q.)

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Fluppet
(Must go home from work)