Something to think about.

[blazerbotics]

Something to think about.

So if all featherweight builders and Roaming Robots (who run 90% of events) want it to stay, then is there a point in debating it?

If the issue had been raised 3 years ago when feathers were still developing then there may have been a point for discussion, but now there is a large amount of feathers, it wouldnt be right to change. I cant see any any benifits from a rule change. If it aint broke dont fix it!

As paul says there are more important issuses to be looked at, like keeping the sport alive.

[grant_ploughbot]

Something to think about.

too true, 12kg should stay. theres too many changes people will have to make anyway to get them uptoi the limit if its even increased to 12.5kg. My dad spent 4 hrs the other day just to take out just less than one hundred grams from my new chassis, and thats all the fun and challenge of featherweights. people say it will be easier top build at 13.7 or what ever they want, but are heavyweights any eisier. No, infact probably harder!
I do not agree with the statement
Dare I say that at present, there is really only one view that counts on this and thats Roaming Robots. Without them there isnt much else left so if they stick to 12kg (which I hope they do), then 12kg it is.
as Roaming Robots hold the events, they are not the majority of roboteers! and the roboteers should have the say. And if RR were to say something ridiculous(which i know they wont) like changing the weight to 18kg, why should everybody follow that? there are other events that people can attend if they wish to such as BTP and Rc Wars events.(sorry this was not a rant at RR btw)
keep thge weight the same, if any changes should be made rules wise for feathers, make it be more challenging rules, such limiting the power of robots, and armour, and such likes to make people have to use more effieciant methods of doing things instead of just spending loads of money on lightweight components with brute force! This would show the real engineers from the average roboteers and then people will realise that they do not have to cost huge amounts to be good.

My opinion anyway,
Grant

[m2xt]

Something to think about.

Grant, RR provide the greatest opportunity for fw builders to compete. Im sure Jonno will correct me here if I am wrong, RR is a club and as such members have to abide by RR rules if you wish to compete at any of its events. I have every confidence that Jonno fully considers any rule changes before making deciding on whether they are appropriate to RR. BTP no doubt have their unique rules as does Roger Plant as does the UKRG, if you wish to attend these events, you have to meet that organisers requirements, it matters not what the Roboteer says. Thats not to say that these organisers do not listen to Roboteers but ultimately it is their decision and their decision alone. If they get it wrong, they dont get the competitors and they have an even bigger problem. Yes there are other events but RR still offers the greatest outlet and without them, I think roboting would be far far worse off than it is now.

Paul

[tim_jones]

Something to think about.

At the risk of being accused of multiple posting I think it only fair to add this here.

Where was the first post?

Any possable changes to the weight limit are due to be discussed at the next FRA committee meeting, due to take place on 12/02/05.
We will let you all know the outcome shortly afterwards.

Surely this is a bit short notice for a matter of this importance?
Does the FRA currently have a sufficient percentage of UK roboteers as members to claim the mandate on this decision?

If you want your views on this subject to be taken into account, please contact your regional rep before the meeting. (contact details are on the FRA web-site)

I would strongly suggest that no decision should be made on the 12th. This is not sufficient notice to ensure that all interested parties can submit there opinions.

Part your regional reps job is to pass YOUR views on to the committee, so please use them and make sure that YOU have YOUR say as to how our sport should develop.

I have not yet renewed my membership due to my disgust that the FRA constitution was apparently passed after a hugely inadequate 2 days for members representations. To make a major change to the weight classes after a mere 6 days for members representations would definitely be the last straw for me.

regards

Tim Jones

[typhoon_driver]

Something to think about.

Tim, from this thread, I do not think any of us have anything to worry about.

[geoff]

Something to think about.

Well, this has certainly provoked some heated debate. (Which is no bad thing) Please be aware THERE IS NO PROPOSAL FROM ANYONE BEFORE THE COMMITTEE TO ALTER THE WEIGHT LIMIT!...The subject is on the agenda for DISCUSSION only.
As has been stated, the RFL and the ABBL both agree that the featherweight limit is 30lb (or 13.6Kg+/-). The FRA happen to have a long standing weight limit of 12Kg, which based on a majority of what is written above seems to be fine for most people. But should that be a reason for the Association not to discuss and engage in debate on the subject? I have asked that intrested members submit there views to their regional rep so these views can be brought into the discussion and taken into account.
The discussions at the meeting should produce one of four possible outcomes...

1) No agreement, therefore the limit remains at 12Kg. (but with the option to revisit this subject sometime in the future)

2) An agreement that the limit remains at 12Kg. (That would be the end of the matter)

3) A proposal to increase the weight limit to 13.6Kg (in line with the RFL / ABBL)

4) A proposal to increase the weight limit to 12.5Kg (in line with the other weight classes)

In the event of outcome 3 or 4 then a detailed proposal would be made available to the membership for a reasonable period of discussion.
It would then be put before the governing body for a formal vote, with the voting members being required to take the views of the membership into account. If approved, it would a further 3 months before any amendment would take effect.
So you can see he FRA is not about to do anything rash with regard to the featherweight weight limit.
I hope that this puts some peoples minds at rest.

Geoff.

[stu]

Something to think about.

Number 2.

Mr Stu

[maddox]

Something to think about.

I will be voting proposition 2.

As well voting against any additional rules or changed rules that dont have anything to do with safety.

[robotic_ants]

Something to think about.

Yep No. 2 as well.


Chris - http://www.featherweights.org/forum

[Guest]

Something to think about.

Dont know why USA and Aus changed it to 13.6kg anyway, stupid to be honest and why did they have the right to change it, it was 12kg from the start so why change it.

Well I never expected to here anything a stupid as that here. Thats something Id expect a yank to say.
How many of you have had a look at the american compititions? If you had youll notice that the weight class you are all refering to is what they call the 30lb class. The reason why america uses that weight is because they are the only country in the world who still uses the imperial measuring system (arogant fools that they are). So all their weight classes from the begining were measured in pounds. When Robot Wars started in england they need to revise the weight classes to fit with the metric system. So you changed the weight class, not them or us.
As for why the Australians changed, I wanted to go to the FRA world championships, but they got canned. At the same time I recieved an invite to compete at the Robolympics. I spread the invite around and since then Australians have been looking at travelling to america rather then england to play robots. But of corse most of us realise we arnt up to their level yet and one way to get there was to meet their weight class. That is all. Some of the builders here are still building to 12kg so they could play in england later.
Unfortuantly I still think Scarifier wouldnt last long against the yanks (or the poms either) so Im saving up for new parts and cant afford to go overseas yet. Oh and Scarifier was under 12kg at the last event it attended. I still aim for below 12kg and use the extra 1.6kg as a buffer.

[tim_jones]

Something to think about.

Im definitely in favour of option 2.

Sadly as long as I refuse to join an organisation that uses what is in effect a block voting system for such major decisions I guess I dont have any right to express an opinion either through a regional rep or personally ;(

Such a major rule change should be decided on a one member one vote system IMHO.

[bugs]

Something to think about.

2

( Number 1, go take a number 2 )

[mute]

Something to think about.

Tim, Geoff said:

In the event of outcome 3 or 4 then a detailed proposal would be made available to the membership for a reasonable period of discussion.
It would then be put before the governing body for a formal vote, with the voting members being required to take the views of the membership into account.

By not being a member you are only hurting yourself. You cant run your feather at events that fall under the FRA and you cant have any say in rule set changes/modifications.

I personally cant see a problem with a local rep taking the areas views into account and then taking the majorities choice/vote to the meeting. I just dont see the difference between that and an individual vote, unless Ive misunderstood what Geoff says.

Also as far as Im aware its a maximum weight limit - its not a target. Heavies weigh upto 100Kg, the most Mute has ever been is 96Kg. I certainly wouldt say Mute is at a disadvantage because it is lighter than some others.

And Id say 2 as well.

[babeth]

Something to think about.

If I interpret FRA-regulations correctly then voting will happen when all points of view have been gathered and discussed. As Geoff stated that will take some time. (Now dont start comparing the FRA with a sloth ! True universal vote means time to organise the polling, to formulate the question, to count the ballots...)

I would go for option 2 as well. I am sure reasonable arrangements can be put in place when American or Australian robots come over to compete. Just as I am sure that our own robots can face their heavier opponents and walk away victorious.

[tim_jones]

Something to think about.

By not being a member you are only hurting yourself. You cant run your feather at events that fall under the FRA and you cant have any say in rule set changes/modifications.

Which events are classed as falling under the FRA? To be honest the FRA has yet to sucessfully promote an event in its own right as far as I know. What exactly is to be gained by a self appointed governing body extorting a fee from the active competitors that are the lifeblood of the sport? The FRA surely has no mandate to either enforce rule changes or exclude non members from events that are in reality run by hard working groups of volunteers?

The event organisers and competitors keep the sport going, personally Im having a hard time working out what the FRAs real contribution is. Im left wondering how they justify their crude attempt to enforce a levy on all competitors.


I personally cant see a problem with a local rep taking the areas views into account and then taking the majorities choice/vote to the meeting. I just dont see the difference between that and an individual vote, unless Ive misunderstood what Geoff says.

Think about it for a while.

The major flaw with block voting is that the vote of the member representing 6 yes votes carries the same weight as the vote representing 20 no votes. That seems pretty warped to me!

With regions that are not holding minuted meetings there is little way of ensuring that the reps are indeed truly and accurately representing the views of their region.

Block voting always has and always will be a seriously flawed system of gauging the views of a wide membership.

Its sad that not enough time was allowed for this to be highlighted during consultation on the constitution. A body that only allows 2 days for paid up members to submit views on a draft constitution is showing scant regard for its members opinions.

Also as far as Im aware its a maximum weight limit - its not a target. Heavies weigh upto 100Kg, the most Mute has ever been is 96Kg. I certainly wouldt say Mute is at a disadvantage because it is lighter than some others.

Ed highlighted one of the major problems, an extra 1.6kg on a well designed spinning disc could leave us all taking our feathers home in binbags. Thats a pretty major disadvantage IMHO

Regards

Tim jones