Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

[babeth]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

If Razer pins an opponent for longer that the allowed time then he should be disqualified. I would urge any judge to look at this closely because I for one would be filing a complaint if it happens when Im present. As far as I know Mentorn had the reputation for leniency regarding the rules for the sake of the show. I do expect from the FRA and Life Event Organisers to be above that.

Regarding clusters - untethered projectiles:
You know that all parts of a cluster must be capable of driving themselves during the entire fight ? That does mean batteries, motors, a speedcontroller and the weapon of course... And think about how fast an antweight can be crushed by the opponent and thus making you lose faster.
Having part of a cluster acting like a weapon on wheels is one of the attractions of having a cluster, but it is not an untethered weapon.

[fluppet]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Supposedly one of Vinnies jobs in the Razer team was to man the stopwatch, and ensure that Razer didnt pin an opponent for longer than the legal limit. (Much of the complaint from team Tornado in their first encounter was based on a misunderstanding of how long the pinning was allowed to continue, as I recall.)

Theres probably a grey area between pinning and a robot being grounded on Razers wedge, though.

Im not sure that pinning to the floor was ever the problem - presumably the clause about deliberate damage to the arena would stop you firing rivets through a wedge, amusing though the concept would be. Clamp-bots do need to have time to be effective, so some pinning is clearly a good thing; however, its also clear that grabbing a robot isnt sufficient to end the fight of itself, so there has to be a let go rule.

If its going to be traced back to anything, its the Mortis vs Recyclops fight.

I thought 13 Blacks problem was to do with being stuck in the arena wall, not being pinned by Razer. They should probably have been freed sooner by the house robots - but then Razer should have been freed sooner in the season 6 final. Some you win...

--
Fluppet

[richard_morris]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

After getting stuck in the wall Razer pinned us onto its wedge. However, we had damaged their wedge so that with our weight, the distorted bit dug in the floor. They tried to drive towards the pit and burned out their motors. At one point we we both stationary (with us pinned) for well over a minute - this was edited out of the TV show. Razer were often leniently treated by the Mentorn judges - it sounds like Arthur will be more stringent. Good.

Richard

[arfamortis]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Oh yes indeed!

After a lot of disscusion it looks like the knockout time is going to be 20 seconds instead of 10.

Comments please.

Arthur.

[arfamortis]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

BTW, Razer always used a stopwatch to time their holds, the only time they held for longer was if they could not release due to being stuck or broken.

[stu]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

But am i right in say there was no time limit for pinning your opponients in Series 7? I think this came about when something happpened in Heat A and people looked to the rule book and it had been taken out or something?
Someone wanna prove me wrong?

Mr Stu

[richard_morris]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Arthur - maybe they did, but if they were stuck over the time, the judges didnt rule against them! And they certainly didnt volunteer it - but I suppose in the heat of battle, neither would I!

Knock out time of 20 seconds? Hmm. When does it start? In the Mentorn days, the point at which the clock started seemed to be 6 months after the bot stopped sometimes. Will it be a case of starting the 20 second count the second any bot comes to a halt? One timing judge per robot so that they can concentrate on each for when it comes to a halt? Perhaps only broadcast the last 10 seconds to the audience, or everyone will get confused....?

Richard

[spinnerboy]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Thats correct Stu i believe it was with M2 and T2 hydraulic crusher that m2 seemed to be held for a long long time,but after some discussion I belive the outcome was that the pinning rule was not present in series 7.

[big_nipper]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

This rule is where exactly? I guess that we will all be given the combat rules before the event. Allthough its not sporting I see no reason why we cant grab hold of someone and keep hold for the full 5 minutes as long as we are still moving and slaming them into the sides and house robots and maybe even down the pit.

This is not pinning as both robots are still moving. Pinning a robot against the side so that neither robot can move is what I would class this rule as.

On the 10 or 20 seconds rule. If we were imobile for that long and got free, if no one told us the fight was over we would carry on. How do we know for sure that the judges have counted us out.

Two examples here. One was at Newark last year where we lost a fight becasue we got counted out for 10 seconds. On 11 seconds we were back on our feet. The other at Debenham where we were pinned against the wall for more that 30 seconds and the other robot claimed that we were imobile becasue we couldnt get free. They even had the cheek to claimed our weapon was not working. We were simply waiting for them to let go and at the end they drove back and saw that we were fully working.

[fluppet]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Richard: Sorry, I wasnt aware of that part of the story. Razer do seem to have had preferential treatment, but the same is true of various big names (Chaos2 vs SMIDSY springs to mind). It sounds as though a deadly embrace was in force (unlike the European Championships), even if it was self-inflicted (*like* the Europeans).

Mark: Im not sure I approve of the idea of keeping a gentle hold on the opponent for the full fight. The idea is not to give an unfair advantage to clamp bots - hydraulic crushers dont hold and stay still, they hold and move around to do damage. Non-clamping weaponry doesnt control the movement of the opponent, and Im happy with the concept that the advantage should last for 30 seconds, after which you should be obliged to re-attack. The alternative, assuming the clamp/crush attack is effective, is that a single attack effectively ends the fight - even if a show is made of inflicting damage.

Of the 10/20 seconds business, there seem to be many cases where the robot is just grounded on something. How about ten seconds, then a yellow flag where the robot must be prodded by a house robot (or, failing that, an opponent) - no attacks permitted during the yellow flag period, so you cant play dead and attack your rescuer. If a robot isnt moving ten seconds after being given a shove, its out. It may take a while for the robot to get shoved, so Id start the second count after that point.

Im trusting here that fights involving full body spinners will tend to have house robots, or there may be a bit of an issue with the definition of prod.

That would seem fairer to me (if beneficial mainly to robots with low ground clearance, which may be a bad thing). Is it too complicated?

--
Fluppet

[babeth]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Good idea.

[big_nipper]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Fluppet, I agree that the Idea of keeping hold for the full fight is not fair but as I see it it has been allowed so far. We have never held on that long yet (at least while Im controlling the weapon) as it makes for a dull fight but in a serious competion where alot of money is at stake organisers beware. Like the other Ideas though alot fairer.

[fluppet]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Eh? Sorry Mark, but the hydraulic crushers and the few genuine clamp bots around have always, as far as Ive seen, made a point of letting go after a bit - I presume within the 1 minute (or 30 second, or whatever) limit, give or take editing for TV. Its true that, due to the limited number of clampbots, there havent been many cases of robots being carried around for long periods of time. Still, if you, or TAN, or Complete Control, or Huggy Bear, etc. were to take more than 60 seconds delivering a robot to the pit (or hazards) without letting go, Id expect you to do so.

Ive always presumed this was because of peoples interpretation of the pinning rule, not just because of sportsmanship. Am I wrong?

(Theres probably a bit of leeway in the business of a robot being stuck on the beak of a crusher, where an attempt is made to free but a deadly embrace is clearly short-lived, but the general concept stands.)

If Marks interpretation is correct, that would seem to have distinct implications for a lot of contestants...

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Fluppet

[arfamortis]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Regarding robots grounding,

I personally would like to see a raised area (say 2 meters square by 25mm high, vertical sides) in the arena as I believe that the current trend toward ground dragging robots is spoiling a lot of fights due to people becoming stuck on the floor, many of them then trying to blame the floor material. If a robot has too little clearance its the robot design at fault not the floor. I hate rambots, theyre boring.

[leorcc]

Rule 12.2.1 (Entanglement)

Arthur, several robots who do not scrape the floor will have problems with a 25 mm raised area. Only with one of my heavys would i even attempt to take that hurdle, and even then i am not sure it could tackle it.

That is not of my poor design, but simply because there has never been a need to take such a precaution in the past. The floors are flat, why build in ground clearance? Only more opportunity for flippers to get underneath.

As far as rambots are concerned:

Here in Holland there are 2 pure rambots, both from the same team, called Alien Destructor (later re-baptised as Das Gepack for the german series) and Alien Destructor 2.

2 things i noticed about them:

1: The ground clearance on both machines are about 2 to 5 inches, so not exactly floorscrapers.

2: I have never seen a boring fight with either of the two robots. Not once.

Just because they are rambots doesnt automaticly make them boring.

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Leo