FBS braking + link system????

[babeth]

FBS braking + link system????

But what if you dont have the luxury of allowing your spinner to run out of power ? Like: people are in immediate danger, cant get away, spinner moving erratically ?
No, I for one will never allow the removable link rule to be bent. It exists for a very solid reason.

When you design/build a robot you should always put the link in mind first, dont save it as an afterthought. I would recommend that to any rooky roboteer... and some of the old ones.

Personally, the only way that seems safe to me is to put your link out of reach of your weapon, then out of the path of your robot, then see how you can make it safer still. Ideally the link would be accessible from all angles in all circumstances but it may never be, but strive towards that goal. The removable link IS practically the most important part of your robot.

[jamesb]

FBS braking + link system????

Not saying we should relax any rules Babeth, just saying that I will personally refuse to pull the link on any out of control spinner, and some flipper. I would not pull Rips link if hes dancing with aan out of control flipper for example, as Im a big chicken.

To put this in perspecive, James Cooper and I own an arena. We are spending a bucket load of cash bringing it up to what we hope will be a class 1 featherweight arena definition. (this currently is not a class that exists.)

We are not doing this because we felt the old arnea wasnt safe, we are doing it because if...

Tantrum, Vortex, etc etc (Horizon) went ape at the start of the fight, the old arena (while still being able to safely contain it) may have taken significant wall damage while we went for a cup of tea (waiting for the batts to die). There is no question of us opening that arena till the things dead, and there is no way we will allow anyone else in there.

The new arena gives use that luxury. If Horizon (who is allegedly the most powerful featherweight spinner ever built, but Ed is about as keen to disclose info about is as Kermit the Frog is to eat bacon after supper. his call) went out of control, we can reliably say that cease would be called, and if the roboteers fightin him want to spend the next 10 mins or so running away thats up to them (they will not be allowed to attack!) as that arena stays locked til Horizon (for want of a more appropriate example) has fallen asleep. We can then get on with the next fight.

If you dont have the luxuary of allowing the spinner to do this, what situation have you created? it should be in an arena, it should not have people in it, and it should be capable of containing the rogue spinner.

Just my take on things.

[james...venom]

FBS braking + link system????

I agree with you there james, i cannot see anybody jumping into an arena with an out of control spinner.

The most important thing i feel is,

If the event organiser allows a spinner to fight in the arena, that means the organiser realizes the risk of running that specific robot and is sure that under NO circumstances could the robot escape in a worst case senario.
Therefore there would be no saftey risk in allowing it to go crazy until the battries die.

if there is a saftey risk in allowing this to happen, then the event organiser has made a wrong decision regarding the risks involved with running that specific robot

[grant_ploughbot]

FBS braking + link system????

yer thats ok james, will sort it out at your house warming, btw when is that?
I will bring it along and show you how far ive got,
as Babeth said, put your link out of reach of your weapon, then out of the path of your robot,
Its a FBS, its not very possible, not that i can see anyhow.
And yes i agree with james there, i would much rather leave my batts to die if my robots out of control, and if i put my main robot PloughBot in the areana with horizon and horizon went out of control then i wouldnt complain about mine being in there with it out of control, rather my robot than me
tahnks for your help
Grant

[fluppet]

FBS braking + link system????

This all sounds a little dangerous and very expensive to me. Im quite happy with the concept that nobody should be approaching an uncontrolled robot - but control is a loose thing.

If a full body spinner goes King B, are the opponents really going to be happy about the damage their robots take if they cant get them out of the way? Its not like they can tap out. Saying they can dodge is all very well, but an FBS can shift across the arena at a fair lick if it ricochets off something.

The arena itself may contain anything the robot can do, but its likely to take expensive damage which may weaken it for future use. Im not sure that relying on the batteries dying us so wise, other than as a last resort.

The circumstances Im thinking of are where something can act as house robot, and can act to immobilise the out-of-control machine (although an OOC machine may well immobilise itself by getting wedged in railings, under an angle grinder, or similar). That leaves the question of how you tell the difference between a flat battery and a machine with a loose internal connection (Supernova) which will come back to life when you approach.

Under those circumstances, where the machine is restrained, I think its appropriate to try to remove the link. This presumes that the link can be removed easily, and doesnt involve two hands on the link and two feet on the armour. Leaving an OOC robot wedged with its motors stalled may cause damage to its motors, speed controllers, or other components, and pose a fire risk.

As an example of what Im getting at, if Typhoon went nuts, Id rather see Killalot pin it in the corner of the arena so the link can be (carefully) pulled than leave it to trash the arena (a non-trivial amount of Makrolon) before going flat - even assuming it didnt manage to jump the wall. Similarly if it got wedged in the wall.

Of course Im not suggesting anyone go in the arena while the robots are free to move, but Id consider the above to be the lesser of two evils. Whether its worth risking is highly dependent on circumstances.

Nonetheless, its an option Id rather have than not have. And if Im going to pull the link from an active, out of control robot (under admittedly exceptional circumstances), Id like to keep my fingers when the machine comes back to life, the spinner slips against the wall, or I accidentally dislodge it. I certainly dont want my fingers stuck inside when the thing catches fire.

As for robots escaping... its impossible to cater for *every* worst case scenario. We can keep the level of safety as high as possible, but actually making it impossible for the robots to escape if something weird happens is prohibitively expensive. The old OOTAd spinner thing is very expensive to counter.

Sorry to harp on about this from a position of inexperience, but Im wary of anyone deciding that making the robot safe is the event organizers problem, not theirs. As an arena owner, James may be happy for feathers to do their worst to his creation, but an arena which takes no damage from a heavy doing the same is a rare thing, and there are other factors involved.

Im with Babeth on this one - if its difficult to make the link accessible, try harder. Everyone else has had to. Sorry to be harsh.

--
Fluppet

[grant_ploughbot]

FBS braking + link system????

Yer well thats fair enough,
The most possible way i can think would be to havee a long stick pertruding from underneath the FBS and pull that out, but its VERY likley to be knoked out, or cut off by another disc!
What do you think about that?
Grant

[james...venom]

FBS braking + link system????

I would have to dissagree there andrew.

first of all, i would definatly (and im sure everyone else does)prefer my machine to get damaged to an out of control machine than me trying to remove the link from an out of control machine.

As to it being extremly expencive if the arena got damaged during the battrey dieing session. So What? as long as it contains the machine so its not a risk to people then im happy. i would much prefer to have a bill for £500 to repair the arena than a lawsuit against me from the person sueing me for injuery.

Dont forget, you can go home and fix your robot or arena no matter how damaged they get. you cant bring someone back to life.

I think its completely down to the event organiser. and being an event organiser myself i know its scary to say lol. but at the end of the day its the Event organiser that says if a specific robot is safe in a specific arena. If they asses all the possible risks and still belive they can contain it in a worst case senario (eg. robot going mad situation) then they are to blame if the robot escapes,hurts somebody during a battle etc...

[grant_ploughbot]

FBS braking + link system????

Thats very true, but also risky to say.
If i took my FBS to an event and they said yes of course we can hold it, without firstly checking how powerfull my robot is, then it causes some damage, then i would blame the event organiser for tellin me its capable of running rather than testing my robot firstly!
But as it goes, the Rc Wars arena is hopefully going to be a class 1 featherweight arena, and so SHOULD hold anything.
cant wait till its done.
Grant

[typhoon_driver]

FBS braking + link system????

just reading over this thread its quite interesting to see what peoples views are.

Grant your last comment sounds exactly like what happened at series 7 with us when we smashed the arena.

Also The most possible way i can think would be to have a long stick pertruding from underneath the FBS and pull that out.

Well we dont quite have a stick poking out the bottom, we just have it out the top! The link was our first major problem and we did what we thought was best to solve it and i think that most people would agree its one of the best places to put it. It also has the added bonus that if the disc gets unbalanced, the oscilation can pull it free, however it takes a hell of alot to do this but it was done in testing.........no trying to take our link out ideas andrew!

It is entirely up to the event organiser as to whether or not they let a robot run. If they are satisfied it meets their requirements and they are happy with it then its their decision to let it run.

And grant about the bearings, they wouldnt be suitable for a 6kg robot, far far too heavy. The two needed would take up 1kg which i dont think would be very good in a effective FBS

[grant_ploughbot]

FBS braking + link system????

ok, Thanks anyway Gary.
I have found two sizes of bearings now that maybe or maybe not suitable. I will finish building my robot and then change all my xle to a much larger one with a centre link but i would rather just get it working so i know im not wasting my time on it lol.
How exactly does your link work Gary?
Thanks Grant

[typhoon_driver]

FBS braking + link system????

well our current links are very low resistance and are able to carry very large currents, a few stats-

feather - 100amp
light - 200amp
middle - 500amp
heavy - 1000amp (very cool!)

however originally we made our own. At the bottom of the shaft there were two half circle cresent moon shapes of copper which were separated by a few mm. On the bottom of the removable part of the link there was a large round disc of copper which connected the two at the bottom. This screwed threw a thread in the centre of the half circles. This was very simple yet effective and we were actually congratualated by the robot wars crew the first time we entered.

[grant_ploughbot]

FBS braking + link system????

Ok thanks, i have come up with a new, very siple way.
I dont know how i could have missed it, and theres no need for a removable flag, it is solidly in, with a removable link at the top.
Instead of the axle down the centre of the bearing spinning, the outer casing for the bearings spin, and so there is able to have a longe, solid axle straight through the centre of the robot with no problems (hopefully anyway)
Will this be ok?
Grant

[typhoon_driver]

FBS braking + link system????

it could work however ensure that the shaft is supported as much as it possibly can be

[fluppet]

FBS braking + link system????

...as it were, Gary.

James: Dont get me wrong - Im not advocating people charging into the arena as soon as their robot starts to go mad. Im just suggesting that there may be circumstances where the robot could be pinned fairly safely (by a house robot, etc.) for at least a brief period (before stalled motors start to burn, house robot batteries die, etc.) but where trying to keep the robot wedged there until its power runs out - assuming one can tell when that is the case - poses some form of hazard which outweighs that of pulling the link.

Perhaps more frequently (and with a less obscure scenario), an out of control robot may appear to have run down, but instead have done a Supernova and merely have a loose power connection. Give it a tug on the link, and it starts moving again. Obviously youve done this from outside the arena, so your ankles are relatively safe, but what about your fingers? If the robot drives off while youre holding the link, chances are your fingertips might sting a bit as the link is tugged out of your hand, but youll feel it going and let go - robots accelerate fast, but not *that* fast. A full body spinner with a mobile link could pull the link away quickly enough to take your fingers with it, then hit your hand with a tooth as it followed through.

I speak, of course, from a completely inexperienced viewpoint, but from a paranoid and cowardly one. I wouldnt be happy with the idea - I could see it going wrong. Mind you, I was always a bit nervous about the idea of sticking an arm through the railings where it could get pinned, too.

Im just trying to think of what can go wrong, and try to avoid it. If it never happens, so much the better.

--
Fluppet