Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

[madoverlord]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Boy, lots of stuff to reply to.

I agree the radio issue is something that has to be dealt with by people helping each other out. Does anyone know if the TX-module radios like the Futaba 9CAP work in both US and UK bands (75 vs. 40 mhz)? Same thing with crystals in the receiver.

Regarding popularity of Featherweights in US, they are becoming one of the most popular classes, as are the 12lb robots, because they are a bit cheaper to build and yet you can still do some serious damage with them. The original version of my bot Anorexia got bounced off the roof of the BotBash arena by VDD, a disc spinner, last summer. It was going over 20mph when it hit the ceiling, we estimate the impact force at over 200Gs, and it chopped a big chunk out of the mild-steel C-channel frame, bending it about 25 degrees! Let me tell you, I was impressed.

There are several really nasty featherweight drumbots, lots of tough wedges and bricks, even some ICE bots.

To clear up some confusion, almost nobody uses keyswitches here, certainly not keyswitches with non-removable keys. The Whyachi switches and the modified Hella switches use a hex key as a key (so nothing to break off), and you would have to physically destroy the switch to get it to change state. Bright main power lights wired to the switch are required, so no light, no power (assuming the light doesnt break, of course)

Realistically, the chance of a bot failing to a dangerous state with both the main power light and the radio light giving misleading results is very slim. A nice feature of the whyachi switch is that when you tighten it down, its off, no ifs, ands or buts. Youd have to put a bullet into it to short it, and a fairly big one at that.

One thing a lot of bots (including mine) do have is a charging plug, a double removable-link that isolates the batteries from the rest of the bot. The difference is that during combat it is stuffed behind a locked panel so that it cannot pop loose, and main power is controlled by the switch.

Requiring a removable link for pit safety but permitting it to be secured if a proper switch is installed might be a way to address the safety concerns and deal with the lucky hit, popped link, dead bot problem. It really sucks to lose that way.

802.11 : bad idea when you get into a noisy environment. Same problem with the otherwise cool IFI robotics kit. They are way too sensitive to interference (eg: internal combustion engines!).

At Robot Assault last summer, an IFI-run bot ran into serious problems because every time his ICE-powered opponent hit the gas, he lost his link.

R/C stuff works because its simple and stupid. Also, the 802.11 stuff weighs more!

26 vs 30. One of my feathers can make it, one (the new one with the magmotor powered blade) almost certainly cant. I just raised it to note the point of difference. Be nice if there was a way for the new bot to compete as thats the one my diabolical sons are going to drive.

I personally would love to have an excuse to come over, since I was born in Tumbridge Wells and I could visit my dear old Nana (98 years young) at the same time. You wouldnt deprive a sweet old lady the chance to see some of her great-grandkids, would you? Surely not! ;^)

On a side note, my website, http://www.madoverlord.com/http://www.madoverlord.com/ has a lot of edited videos of events over here. I run an Anime company (allegedly) and so have sort of drifted into the job of videoing events. Hope to have them coming out on DVD soon.

Enjoy.

[fwsorg]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Robert has a point- would it be acceptable to remove the charging links whilst in the pit? This would rule out the possibility of Pit activation, however It still does not allow a particularly easy de-activation should the bot loose control.

Ive been researching RF modules and have come out more confused than I went in. Which radios will accept RF modules. Are RF modules specific to their radios (eg 6 ch./7ch./8ch) and can 40Mhz modules be purchased for these? Can suynthseised modules be purchased in the 40Mhz frequency? A general explanation of modules would be much appreciated as I really dont have a clue with modules :-)

[geoff]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

As I see it eddy,
The FRA require an easily accessable removable link with power light. This is not open to negotiation. If you want a power switch, that is up to you, but a removable link (and light) MUST also be fitted up stream from your switch towards the batteries.
As far as Robert and any of our other US friends are concerned, Im sorry, but this is one rule that you guys are just going to have to live with if you want to compeat in the UK. Im still holding out a little hope that we can agree somthing on the weight thing, and Im sure we can work out something like a radio loan system to keep you UK legal.
So at the end of the day, two out of three aint bad!

[stu]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

I agree with Geoff about the link and light.
Like you pointed out Eddy -its mainly down to activating and de activating the robots at the door. If we think about it in more detail - with all these US bots with Ti all over, there not going to get Hurt that much and may not even need a link. But it gives peace of mind to the person who has to turn these things on and off, or surpervise it all. And just imagen if a speedo or something wouldnt turn off - links all the way, not hard to fit, and not hard to make sure they dont pop out.

I dont know what to do about the weight limit for feathers. In the long run, i say stick to 12kg. But for this one off event -, if we have to stick to the FRA rules 100%, then 12kg it may have to be, but if something else can be done - then go for it.

Mr Stu

[fluppet]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

I have to say that, even in this day and age, removable links still seem to be falling out of robots (see Dantomkia in the All Stars - although admittedly there was previous damage involved in that particular case). Vast numbers of fights have been cut short because of links being knocked out, and making them hard to remove seems contrary to the idea of keeping things safe. For all the assertions in this thread that its easy to ensure links stay in, this still seems to be a problem for some quite high profile robots. Im not saying that switches are any better, and certainly links would seem to be *safer*, but theyre not perfect.

Ive had this rant before, so I wont go into detail, but my personal preference would be for some means to indicate that the link has come out, and to call a time out so that it can be reinserted. Itd still be better to ensure that the link stayed in, but it would mean that we wouldnt have so many unfair fights, and we might not need a crowbar to get the link out of a live robot which has been designed to avoid link failure. Some means of signalling that the link had been removed (as opposed to other power failure) would make a currently simple system a lot more complex, although it might be a convenient safety measure, but perhaps when roboteers deactivate their machines at the end of a fight they could take the opportunity to say hang on! and restart.

Just a thought, with all kinds of practical problems, but I just thought Id bring it up again while the link/switch issue gets another mention.

--
Fluppet

[maddox]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Sam Smith has a wonderfull solution.

Velcro.

[fluppet]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

That works? On a heavy? Over the flame pit?

Ill bear it in mind, though. I tend to think in terms of some kind of bayonet fitting (counter-sprung so force is required to extract it), but maybe Im over-thinking it, never having tried to build one. Anything twisty would be harder to remove at poles length, too.

Are all the failures seen with links really down to inadequate retention mechanisms? Well, obviously, they are, but what I mean is: are there really lots of teams out there with inferior link retention, or have those teams who have had failures with this just been unlucky? If not, should we have some more guidelines from the FRA on how to stop a link falling out?

Sorry to go off-topic; just curious, and sharing the concern of the US roboteers.

--
Fluppet

[stu]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Enough is enough about links popping out : Pussycats link has NEVER EVER CAME OUT.
With all the slamming around, flipping around, hits from Mr Psychos hammer, flying by the arena flipper, bashed by Fluffy, flipped by Chaos 2, M2, Dantomkia, the link has NEVER came out!

The link has never came out on any of our feathers, not being whacked by Vortex, flipped by a heavy weight, or bring hit by Thors Hammer on Kitty - we have NEVER had a link problem.

Ok it may happen now i have said all the above - but point being - we havnt had a problem, i personaly havnt had a problem with the bots ive built, and Pussycat has never had a problem that Alan has built. so personaly - get out there and do something about it.

Sorry for being rude - but if its never came out of Pussycat, and never came out of my robots with my poor building skills after going in and it being trashed and polycarb flying everywhere coz of Vortex and co, im sure everyone else can do it.

Mr Stu

[m2xt]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Mike does not use the same link in Dantomkia as most of us, that is for a technical reason to do with the battery charging method. Mike use a bungee to retain the link in but has been known to forget to put the bungee on and link falls out. The link on M2 is exposed and after over one hundred fights has never come out, came close when Pussycat tried to cut through it in S7!

I have sold over 300 heavyweight ready made links and never had a complaint. Thats not to say one has not come out but I would like to think its very rare.

Personally, I feel that this is one of the best rule changes that Mentorn came up with - the primary battery current has to flow through the removeable key. Returning to an on/off switch would be madness IMHO.

[fluppet]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Im not disagreeing (I certainly prefer the idea of a link, probably being more safety paranoid than the average roboteer). Im not accusing those roboteers whove not had link problems of having a weak point - I was just wondering whether those who *have* had problems were doing something different. Sorry if I sounded accusatory, Mr Stu!

Thanks for the explanation about Dantomkia - although I was aware that there had been a repair problem anyway. The link removals that tend to stick in the mind are actively caused by another robot (Behemoth and Shunt, Bulldog Breed and Hypnodisc) but there have been a good number of others that I recall as a spectator. Paul and Stu, are your links solely held in by friction(shield flap aside) or do you have some mechanism to hold them in place? Im speaking as a proto-builder here - clearly your designs are sufficient to stop link failure, so if were promoting link usage as an alternative to switches (see, Im on topic) it would be nice to know what you do. May I ask how the bungee on Dantomkia works? (Is it just a loop holding the link together? Doesnt that make it a bit slow to remove?)

I learn a little more with each digression. :-)

--
Fluppet

[spinnerboy]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

We have only ever had our link come out once and and it was someone else who put it back in after a cease was called.

[stu]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

I cant be 100% sure on what Dantomkia uses, Mike may tell you later, but from what he spoke to me about and from viewing it, its more of a bungie clip, that clips onto the Link. Idea is to push the clip away then you can pull the link, all with the use of 2 digits and a thumb. But you can still pull it out if you yank it, like the Tech Crew did when the robot was driven back out of the arena, then deactivated by the Tech Crew. (this damaged mikes bungie clip thing, which is why his link came out in the All Stars final). Well you shouldnt need a clip thing mikey

Pussycats link does rub up against some ali. It proberly is up against alot of friction, have to push quite hard to get it in, and pull, well not hard to pull back out, just hard to put it in.

But still - my mini anderson links i use in my feathers from FW.org, none of them have came lose, and there not rubbed up against something.

Hear so many link fell out. Personaly i dont know how thats possible. LOL! If someone hits it, then fine. But there quite hmm strong in terms of clipping them together for them to just shake lose. I dont know.

Mr Stu

[teamchip]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Must say our link (one of Pauls from Technobots) has also never come out...although not being in as many fights as PC or Dantomkia we have been in a fair few...and the pumelling Chip got in New Blood being arena flipped, attacked by Thor, Psycho, and Growler for almost the full duration it didnt come out.

Just wish everything was as reliable as the link

[andrew_gardner]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Im 100% behind removeable links, despite Blitzs coming out at IRR. Anyway, those Team Whyachi switches require a Hex wrench to operate them, which is kind of against the able to be de-activated tools by hand without any tools rule.

[stu]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Feather Weight people - a semi poll has been set up on FeatherWeights.org, just out of interest what other featherweight roboteers views are about increaeing from 12kg to 13.6kg, for this big event or/and for the future.

Mr Stu
http://www.FeatherWeights.org/coms.htm>