Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

[madoverlord]

Read the mention of the international competition this August, and started thinking of bringing over a bot or two from here in the colonies.

After reading the UK rules there are a couple of things that could be done to make it easier for US robots to compete, that might be worthy of discussion.

US rules can be found at http://www.botleague.com/http://www.botleague.com/

1) Featherweight weight class differences. Here in the US FW is 30lbs, not 12 kilos. Not much that can be done about that, I fear, and thats why God created hole saws.

2) Radio problems. Having to buy a whole new tx/rx for one comp is onerous. Some sort of way to borrow radio kit would be great. Needless to say this could work both ways.

3) Indicator lights & Failsafes. There are some differences between UK and RFL rules here. We both need a visible main power light, but the rules about receiver lights and failsafe lights are different. Basically, in the US, only a main power light is required, but you must demonstrate that the bot fails safe if either the radio signal is lost or the receiver dies.

4) Removable links. This is the biggie. Most US robots do not use removable links because they are too unreliable and are also considered more dangerous. The preferred method is a switch such as the Team Whyachi switches (http://www.teamwhyachi.com/http://www.teamwhyachi.com/), which activate using several turns with a hex wrench. They simply cannot pop out, and you can construct a tool that mounts the hex wrench on as long a handle as you desire, so they permit you to disable the robot from a very safe distance.

Just some food for thought.

[jeremy_cuss]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Robert,

Im sure others will reply about about your points 1-3, so I will concentrate on the point that you make about the differences between US and UK rules on removable links. I think that we, in Britain, have got hung up about needing to show the link removed. Would it not be as good if the power light did not come on with the transmitter and receiver both on? Of course you can think of ways to fool the scrutineers, but that could be done now, and never is. As far as I know everyone does their best to obey the rules as written.

I do know that on Robot Wars 7 almost every week one robot was immobilised because the link came out or became loose.

Perhaps it is time for the FRA to have another think about this rule.

Jeremy

[teamchip]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Some good points Richard.

have no idea about the rules in the US...will read that URL link when I can.The removable link though ...the one you describe sounds better re the way it cant come out but at least with a totally removable link you have a visable sign that the bot is dead. It is handed in to transmitter control so there is NO WAY you can make your bot active in the pits without permission...plus if it does pop out in a fight it at least fails to safety...annoying re losing the fight I know, but at least the bot is definately dead.

The frequency thing...not sure what it is in the states (72? 75? Mhz) but there are some radio sets like the Futaba FF7 (like we use) and much more modern sets than this that use interchangeable RF modules ...I have a 40mhz one in the transmitter for robot stuff and a 35mhz one for model aircraft stuff. I agree though you would still have to buy a different receiver.

Hope you can make it over here.

Tom

[blazerbotics]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

1. how many feathers are there in the US? also how many would make the trip across? im assuming only those with heavyweights will. Obviously reducing your weights by 1.6kg is alot of work for you, and the only thing most of us could do is add extra armour without rebuilding the robot and considering most of us have spent alot of time/money getting them to 12kg, im sure people wont be too pleased.

2. most roboteers have spare radio sets, im sure agreements could be made before the event to borrow peoples.

3. Only a power light is needed, the failsafe and Rx supply are advisory only.

4. Tricky subject, by allowing you key switches should we allow UK robots to use them? But why should we then allow your robots to use them when we have been banned? I suppose its a matter of opinion, i dont mind, providing the switch is safe and reliable. I cant understand why so many peoples links fall out, our link, you have to use both hands to get it out!

[jim]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

This is a good argument in favour of allowing 802.11 remote control - so far as Im aware the same equipment is legal to use on both sides of the pond and in other countries.

Personally I like the idea of removable links; I know when Ive got the link in my back pocket that my robot is safe(r) to work on. I can see advantages to something that can be deactivated by a tool on a long pole - a hook on a stick could work as well on removable links, but as Alan says the 175A connectors often require quite a bit of force to remove.

[team_ireland]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_switches.htmlhttp://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_switches.html

These seem to be the main types available to the US. Personally i have seen 2 of them being used (the team whyachi and the Hella Master Power Switch) The both seem very safe to me and were allowed in robot wars (well the hella master power switch anyway) as centurian used to use one.

Just my opinion

Regards
Ian

[blazerbotics]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Hella key switches were banned over here due to the posibility of the key being snapped off during a fight, and ending with no way to shut down the robot. I much prefer the links as they are so simple, and if the right ones are used, then they wont come out.

[Guest]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Quite a few roboteers used this kind off switch but the key keeps on braking that is why they where not alowed in robot wars i had to change mine to enter S6

[babeth]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

I prefer removable links to fixed switches. We all know what kind of weird damage a robot can get during a fight and in my opinion a fixed switch can be damaged far more easily than a removable link. With the removable link the ultimate tool is a crowbar (ask Derek Foxwell) but what do we do with a snapped switch ?

The other points: frequency, lights, weight of featherweights... that is exactly why the Dutch and other European roboteers abide by the rules established by the FRA. We want as little confusion as possible. But we all know that the USA have more differences in respect to -say- tools and industrial standards than you would think and that there will always be problems. What you need then is an international agreement regarding each others rules when international battles take place. That is the only option.

(The worst example would be like asking USA soldiers to swith to Kalishnikows because all guerilla and terror soldiers use them... stupid no ? Exactly my point.)

[fwsorg]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

At featherweights.org we had a small debate about the 12kg/30lb limit, trying to decide if we shoudl move to 30lb. It wasnt met with too much excitment, the main arguement being that people arnt particularly likely to hop over the pond to battle featherweights. However, I think with the sport becoming more international (although with the robotic olympiad claiming it was truly international yet having no UK fighting robots competing to my knowledge) I think it is justifyable to re-opne the debate. Perhaps a large MSN meeting one saturday night of featherweight builders? It would be good to get some US builders involved in such a debate aswell, as us getting to know them and vice versa can only be a good thing. Thoughts?

[stu]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Tricky subject there Eddy. Like Alan said above, alot of people have spent alot of time and money getting their robots down to 12kg. Also it is widly known a Feather Weight is 12kg, and has been since RW UK first started. I know which side of the fence i will be on if that disscussion takes place.

Ian those switches WERE allowd in RW, un till about Series 5 i think it was - they banned them as there were many times in the area where a switch broke and could not turn the robot off to be taken to the pits safely. Removable Links all the way. Dont like it, build a link which does not fail or fall out - many teams have done this, see no reason why not everyone else can.

Mr Stu
FeatherWeights.org Crew

[fwsorg]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

I have received several emails on the subject, and there seems to be a fialrly common concensus.

Re: radio swapping- this seems to have gone down quite well- quite a neat solution. It could also work two ways should we cross the pond. Im going to look into getting a radio with a frequency module so that I can be US-proof.

Links- a no budge zone it would seem- The piece of mind and safety advantage offered by a link is far superior to a switch. I dont think theres much room for manouver on this one.

Weight Limit- it is a lot easier to make a 12kg robot 13.36kg (30lb), than a 13.36kg robot 12kg. In the immediate future, should we have feather events with a substantial no. of US feathers, I think we should have a 30lb weight limit- I think geoff put it best: It would mean adding 1.36Kg to a 12Kg machine (not hard to do)!

In the long term, if events start becoming more international, then I would propose we increase the weight limit, or at least meat somewhere in the middle. The arguements Im beginning to hear for keeping the 12kg weight limit are identical to the ones wheeled out when the heavy weight limit went up to 100kg from 80kg- and that has been a definate success, despite everyone saying it would bring about the end of the sport. Of course Im thinking far off here- were no way near this stage yet, but increasing ties with other countries is no doubt a good thing in my opinion- Belgium and Holland are testiment to this- the standard of the dutch robots is terrifying! A standard set of rules for the world would be a good thing I think. That leaves the option open of traveling to events all over the world- imagine if you were going on holiday to america, and you found out that there was a motorama or nerc or bot bash by the sea or what have you only 20 minutes away to be held whilst youre there- I know I certainly wouldnt
be able to resist the temptation to pack the featherweight!

[geoff]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

My appolgies...Clearly my maths is slipping..30lb = 13.60Kg
So I have just found you all another 240g!!

[stu]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

LOL!!!!
Well the post about the FRA Word Championship states the FRA rules will be in use. After talkng to a few people, the rules will not be changed. Power lights are needed (not hard) a removable link is needed, there safer, and weight classes stay the same.

Mr Stu

[fwsorg]

Encouraging International Competition / Harmonizing Rules

Sure sure- FRA rules for this event. Im thinking more long-term here- certainly there are issues with changing FRA rules to do with the insurance that covers the rules. Out of interest, how often will the rules be up for review?