Pit Rules

[teamstorm]

Re: Pit Rules

The problem from a show perspective, is that one robot trundling around the arena, whilst another thrashes around trying to get out is just boring. Even if the robot then manages to get out 25 seconds later, by then the audience are switched off and wondering what is going on ! Count to 25 and see how exciting it is, trust me, no matter how exciting you think it is at the controls, on the other side of the arena, that far in to your thrashing the audience is just wondering what is going on.

..... not least of which because the show and the rules that they all have in their heads, tell them that when a robot goes down the pit, it has lost.

The problem gets compounded if a robot is then pushed back into the put and thrashes around to get out a second time, another (up to) 30 seconds of boredom for the audience (I'm sorry, but they don't find that exciting)

A rule that allows 20% of a fight to be a robot thrasing around in the pit is just dull, the idea that the rule then allows for another 20% of the fight to be spent this way is bordering on daft.

But if we must have the idea that robots can get out of it, it should be 'straight out' (measured in a few seconds).

[james...venom]

Re: Pit Rules

Totally agree Ed, why are we entertaining the idea of letting robots get out and carry on? For competition it should stay as the original simple rules. If your in your out. Whiteboards are another matter , if you want to let people carry on because it adds something to your show thats no problem but not for real competition. The audience dont understand it (its different to what they have always seen), it avoids needless waiting and it doesn't favour any particular robot.

[craig_colliass]

Re: Pit Rules

How many times!!!!

the old rules were forged by default, the pit in the TV series was about 1meter deep so no machine could get out. and again the TV series is
DEAD and in the original format won't be coming back.

Now the pit is for practical reasons shallower, and the machines are better so now they can, the rules as they stand at the moment are you can get out of the pit and carry on if you release your robot in the 30 second limit. the time limit is to be debated.

The question I would like an answer to from the EO's and/or the FRA executive is, if they run an FRA championship will they stick to the FRA rules?

[teamstorm]

Re: Pit Rules

Craig I have to disagree with you - the old format is not dead, again we need to remember who our audience is.

Just because WE do not compete in the show does not mean out audience doesn't watch it time and time again on various channels. The audience do have an expectation of how the 'game' works and I'm sorry bit there is confusion when things don't follow the rules they believe they understand.

I think your reaction of shouting how DEAD the show is just highlights the issue and risk that we carry if we forget who the audience is, who we are entertaining, who pays for the shows and who we need to ensure have a great time. A confused audience is not a happy audience.

Nor do the audience care about the FRA 'rules' - and for the record they are called 'judging guidelines' not rules as its down to EO's how they run their shows.

[PJ-27]

Re: Pit Rules

Well this a tricky one!

The pivoting point seems to be what is 'in the pit'?

- Robots teetering on the edge is great entertainment. Not in?
- Robots touching the bottom but still mostly out of the arena? The RC pit is quite shallow in comparison to some of the bigger robots. Hard call.
- Some robots can happily drive out of the pit like Seraph.
- In the past Bitza has landed from a flip with so much force we've bounced out of the pit back onto the arena floor, but we touched the bottom?

To this end my suggestion (and vote) would be a shorter timer, 5-10s that starts the moment a robot is touching the pit floor.

[craig_colliass]

Re: Pit Rules

Hi Ed

I feel we won't agree on this matter,

As a point of reference I didn't say the format is dead I said the old TV shows are dead.

The audience don't necessarily remember the TV rules, and even I can hear the cheers of the crowed when Saint gets out of the pit and has another go at the other robots.

And for the record they are called 'judging guidelines' not rules as its down to EO's how they run their shows.

Sorry wrong the title is

Competition Regulations - Regulations and Judging Rules for Competition.

I can't see anything that says the rules can be skipped because they we feel like it.

[Mouldy]

Re: Pit Rules

Had a nice looooooong chat with Kane tonight !!

I like the idea of a compromise, I'm favouring 10 seconds to get out and an audible warning when the count down has started so the compare knows and roboteers know what going on so it's clear to everyone.

Enough squabbling and bringing shows down :-) they are what they are, attend or don't attend it's your choice!

Roll on 2013, it's going to be good year for RR that's for sure !!

I like this idea ^

[james...venom]

Re: Pit Rules

I think the rules need to be clear. they need to be as everyone understands them for championships. If you ask any audience member what happens when someone goes down the pit they would say they are out. Its the same as being flipped out of the arena.

Allowing robots to get out is giving a very big advantage to flippers which is unjustifiable. If a robot goes down a pit it can still drive around so its surely not immobile so it make the rule very un easy to follow. Yes its fun for whiteboards but for serious sporting competition...

[craig_colliass]

Re: Pit Rules

Hi Dave I like it too

I think I have posted enough to clarify my position on this, so I will let it be for now.

[Team Invade]

Re: Pit Rules

As for crowd enjoyment watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIR71oqG5QU

[blazerbotics]

Re: Pit Rules

We have always wanted the 10second rule, I have stated this on numerous occasions in the past few years. 30seconds is too long, especially when there is no chance of the robot getting back out of the pit.

I didn't like the instant count, robots getting out of the pit has always been part of the live events scene, it's entertaining for the audience as well. If a robot cant get out in 10 seconds, the chances are it isn't going to get out at all. I don't see how it benefits flippers, when you consider Saint, Big Nipper etc that are capable of getting out, and are the most unique robots on the circuit.

Comparing it to Robot Wars doesn't really count, as nobody ever did it! I'm sure if somebody had got out they, would have let the fight continue (Remember Cassius 2 had a spike of the back, designed to get them out of the pit).

At events it's down to the EO to come decide what rules we are fighting to, as long as people know before hand of any changes. However the UK Champs are down to the FRA. It would be nice to use the FRA ruleset all the time, but as I said, we never agreed with the 30seconds, so always ran 10.

By having the instant count out, we get the whole issue of what determines being in the pit, whereas with a countdown, that's easily seen by if the robot is immobile. Some machine only need one wheel over the edge to immobilise them, where some can be fully in, and get out. With the countdown it's just a case of whether they have got away/out of the pit.

Good topic though, about time we had a heated discussion on here!

[Ianshock]

Re: Pit Rules

Evening all. I dont post often but I feel the urge to do so !

I think if anyone is justified by commenting its us as Maelstrom coming 2nd In the UK h/w champs this year and being defeated by the pit...our comment is worthy !

1. The rules du jour should not have been announced at the briefing. I cant recall if there was a vote (to at least make it democratic) but rules are rules and shouldnt change on the day. Thats not cricket ! there was continued deliberation on what constituted an 'in' and I think it was not appropriate or correct to do it this way. If this was such an issue why was it left till the event ?

2. Lets be honest if your in the pit and cant get out in 10 seconds your probably never going to anyway. 30 seconds is too long. The audience enable our sport and they need to be entertained - their value for money is never as more important as it is today. If we dont evolve and be creative and we keep things as they were then we all know what will happen.

3. Finally and not sour grapes here....if the rule had not been changed...Will might just have had a go to get out of the pit after being ceramoniously dumped in it by pin point driving accuracy of Big Nipper ! (but i think we would have been lucky to get out so Nipper won fair and square no issues there !)

So I for one think we continue to encourage innovation and diversity, only modifying the rule in a democratic way to reach a compromise that keeps audiences entertained, enables creativity but enables fair play to all.

my 2 cents.
The other half of Team Shock.
Ian
BTW Merry Xmas !

[Garfie489]

Re: Pit Rules

Just to make a suggestion, since i watch most of the fights, sometimes from the audience, sometimes with the robotieers. This seems a fair system to me, from most peoples perspective (EO`s, Fans, Robotieers with flippers, Robotieers without flippers)

For the first 2 minutes of a fight, 10 seconds is enough time to escape. Plus, an EO could make it into a great spectacle, with lights flashing either red or yellow to indicate danger, and a countdown, as they land in the pit. It would not be confusing for the crowd, the generally catch on quite quick and i think they would be counting it down like a refbot of old, and cheering if the robot escapes, and cheering if the fight ends (because they have just been interactive) especially if the announcer explained it at the beginning. And it would allow fights to remian entertaining.

For the last minute of the fight though, instant kill. By this time the fights gone on long enough for it to be entertaining, and worth its money, for the time it takes to get those two particular robots in and out. It also gives a clear minute for any non flipper to have an insta kill, meaning it levels out the playing field. If your good enough to survive 2 minutes, your good enough to get the robot down that pit. Plus if you get a robot down the pit in the first 2 minutes and it escapes, you should be able to get it down again.

[razerdave]

Re: Pit Rules

I would be very happy with a 10 second pit escape for the same reasons as Garfie (audience count down the 10, cheer if they escape), but not in the final minute because that would require a timekeeper for every fight which in some cases may not be plausible.

[cliveb]

Re: Pit Rules

I think that the rule set is very clear. Imagine turning up next year to be told that acctually we have upped the weight limit to 120kg? Also can you think what might happen if at the FA Cup Final the 2 finalists were told that the FA had changed the rules to allow only 10 players per team? For what it's worth I like the 10 second idea.