Pit Rules

[craig_colliass]

Re: Pit Rules

Firstly this wasn't discussed by me. when was it agreed what happens with the feather weights, affect the Heavies? why aren't the published rules modified if this is now the case? If flippers can get out of your little pit sort out your arena don't change the law for everyone!!

Robot Wars is DEAD and partly because the program directors ignored the written rules, I for one am glad It's dead! This is now, and what happened in the past doesn't have to be enshrined in some reverent impenetrable law.

Flippers have had the run of wins before and after this rule if you want to stop short fights and them winning all the time. have the fight caged. I can't see how you can argue for diversity and the same breath say Seraph and Gabriel can't use the facility they were designed to have.

[cliveb]

Re: Pit Rules

Regardless of personal preference and opinion,if its in the rules until they are changed,those are the rules.As far as I am aware Robots Live let you get out of the pit at their events as well.

[robotwars]

Re: Pit Rules

Heres some facts....

RL employ a 10 second pit rule, so they have been doing what they want too. Alan DOESNT aggree with the rule that was made about you're in the pit and your out, and also AGGREES for his show the crowd go mental when a robot gets out, and that its GOOD for our shows ! I spoke to him this morning about it.

Swanny its not that RR will do whatever, RL have been doing the same, we both need to protect our shows and make sure people come back and watch it or no one gets to play with their robots, i have followed the rules set out, and they have been posted above, there is no mention of if your in the pit your out, that has never been the rule to my knowledge.

What i have a problem with is rules being made without discussion, or at least a discussion between a begrudged roboteer and the chairman of the FRA is so powerful it got a rule changed. I havent heard anyone stand up and say they were consulted !

i spoke to 1 of the 3 people of the governing body and he explained there was NO discussion before the event, and the first he knew about the rule change was actually at the UK champs event.
He also told me he didnt know I'd been told i wasnt doing the FRA UK champs either which is interesting.

James, If a robot got out, and Venom lost, it wasnt a wrong decision, its what the rules state. I dont see how this stops diversity in robots, take the Saint... built to get out of the pit, thats diverse. You could build an anti pit device for venom, thats diverse, or how can this new rule promote diversity?
Everyone knows ive tried to stop the flippers dominating and ive spent time evolving the arena. Wires, moving it close the the backwall, and it has made a massive difference. Alan has now jumped on board too with his wires. If you dont like flippers dominating in your arena... do what ive done, do what alans done and invest some time changing your arena, make the pit deeper, increase the walls of your arena, dont keep it the same! its worng to change the rules because you dont like it.
Andy kane tried to do the same, Kan Openers tactic is put people in the pit, so yeah he didnt like it if they got out and he tried to force the pit rule, but thats evolution of robots.

There's an underlying issue here which has always been here and that is the FRA and communication.

Im a major EO, was never involved in any discussion about changing a rule, and even then there should be a period of time before rules are changed.
Spoken to alan the other major EO, and he wasnt asked about it, and doesnt aggree with it.

Is it any wonder i have a reluctancy about the FRA and follwoing what they say, and i know im not alone.

John
http://www.RoamingRobots.co.uk

[james...venom]

Re: Pit Rules

As I recall judging guidelines were discussed with the eo's for which the pit was a part of it? I am not saying that it has been changed but that it was being look into for the uk champs.

I am begrudged because my opponent didnt show mobility on its wheels for 50 seconds and was not counted out because it was a flipper and given benefit of the doubt which included being unable to selfright and being in the pit. Ive no problem with the guys or their robot at all its just the way 2 different bots are judged.

Why should EO's always be the ones that have to invest in adapting the arenas when there is nothing wrong with them. With out major work raising the whole inner arena we cant get a deeper pit, it makes sense to look at new ruling especially when there is no current rules on the pit specifically. We should adapt the rules to make the sport go in the direction we need it to go, not adapt or keep rules to suit the current robots out there. If we do the sport will dwindle and gradually fade out. Im all for brining FW down to 10kg.

Absolutely agree we want to encourage innovation like seraphim, an excellent machine. We just look at what robots have it easiest and then look at how we can even out the advantages as any 'sport' would do. I think this is where we are all struggling. RR & RL run events to entertain and put on a good show where as RC put on a sporting event where we feel gives us a different approach.

[robotwars]

Re: Pit Rules

So if it was in the pit for 50 seconds trying to get out, it should have been deemed immobile surely ? Why wasnt it?

The current rule would cover that wouldnt it???

John

[Eventorizon]

Re: Pit Rules

I have never fought a flipper outside of a whiteboard but it is a little frustrating that they can recover from the pit during a competition fight despite being out driven and being pushed down the pit. It a way it removes some of the skill required to drive the the robot as you know that if you do get pitted you can get out again without much trouble.
You could have say 30sec immobilisation rule and 7.5sec to get out of the pit.
James - What is the current mechanism that lowers the pit ? Could a new one be built that would allow it to go lower? And 10kg feathers; they would just fly further!

[Ellis]

Re: Pit Rules

I would be happy to let flippers escape the pit if they didn't have the absolutely massive advantage of being able to flick a robot over the walls. There were loads of intense fights at MMM14 this year, which I put down to flippers not having the immediate upper hand. And it isn't like they would become redundant, Adrenaline (FP flipper) beat us to first place with no OOTA zone.

It can almost be guaranteed that a flipper will either win the 2013 champs, and if not, one will definitely be in the top 3. I have to say I find that disheartening.

[razerdave]

Re: Pit Rules

I watched that venom and Explosion fight back, and:
1: Explosion was not on its wheels for 11 seconds.
2: Venom then pinned it (on the wall and then with the claw) for 30 seconds (right at the end of the 30 seconds, Venom drove explosion and himself in the pit.
3: Explosion was mobile again within 30 seconds (escaped the pit and then turned itself back over.

Does the 30 second immobilisation rule come to effect if it gets pinned during the count ? I say (and the rules say) no. By the rule set at the time, Venom lost fair and square.

As for the pit rule, would prefer 10 seconds to 30 as a compromise between comp rules and the entertainment factor (the audience wouldn't want to wait the full 30 seconds).

I did not hear of any discussion about changing the rules until Kane informed the judges at the HW champs.

[Liftoff]

Re: Pit Rules

Just my 2 cents worth...in our event the pit has a simple trap door hinged on one side, anyone falling in the pit will find himself about 2.5 feet below the arena, the pit has no sidewalls so if you move or roll to one side it will be next to impossible to get out of it, even for a flipper as you'll hit the pit ceiling trying to get out. Imho it is the simplest way to build it and the biggest chance who falls stays there

[james...venom]

Re: Pit Rules

Thats the tricky thing Dave the rules are grey and just need some clarification as the opponent showed it couldnt selfright and didnt move for over 30 seconds. Again I have absolutely no problems with them, they are great guys. Its more to do with rule interpretation. I thought the battle was already over however it the judges hadn't started counting. Regarding the pit we are stuck with its depth so for us we need to find a way of taking away advantages of certain weapon types. Its certainly not to stop minority robots like seraphim but to even the majority of flippers.

I understand for shows and whiteboards do what you like because its 'fun' its 'entertaining' however we do sports events so the rules need to be clear.

[robotwars]

Re: Pit Rules

James,

I think I've watched the fight in question and its interesting.

Surely the only reason it wasn't moving was because you had it pinned, so it can't be counted out because if you weren't holding him he could have continued ??

At the point you grabbed it, was the point it would have landed on its wheels and carried on.

And bad driving putting yourself in the pit too ??

John

[james...venom]

Re: Pit Rules

thats why I say its grey. From what I saw it tried to self right repeatedly and couldnt so I grabbed them. The aim was to keep hold and drive both machines in the pit and get jammed in there however they came loose and got out. Mobility wasn't shown for over 50 seconds whether thats because they couldn't selfright or were in the pit, on their back stuck etc my issue was that the clock was never started. Judges didn't feel that it should be started because it was a flipper. If it was the other way round and venom struggled to self right the clock would be ticking down. As soon as Venom is on its back they did start the clock in all my battles.

This is why I feel for competition battles it should be nice simple rules that everyone can follow and measure as it used to be. For entertainment shows do whats fun.

[james...venom]

Re: Pit Rules

Both Pit rules and Immobilisation rules and knowing when to count out was a discussion started by Kane straight after the FW UK champs in which all EO's and FRA committee members were included. Regretfully only Jonno replied and maybe its a conversation that should be continued.

[robotwars]

Re: Pit Rules

surprise surprise it was only me who replied !!

[craig_colliass]

Re: Pit Rules

James seen the video and if I were jugging I would have given the fight to Explosion. I counted 14 seconds with explosion doing it's thing then about 28 seconds with Venom holding it. As I see the rules they aren't unclear Venom lost. Sorry

The reason why the EO's should pay for modifications on their arenas is they are theirs!

The sentence
We should adapt the rules to make the sport go in the direction we need it to go,

I would argue the rules are simple and don't need adapting they need adopting.

We just look at what robots have it easiest and then look at how we can even out the advantages as any 'sport' would do.

Answers Caged fights, restricted gas restricted ram size or reduced pressures, In the 2012 Champs how many fights apart from yours, were lost as a result of a pit evacuation and how many from OOTA's I don't know but I would hazard a guess :shock: