Featherweights - Active weapon rule

[blazerbotics]

Lets see if we can get some sort of debate going on here. For those that were at Worthing, you may have seen the Featherweight final, we had only pushers and a couple with slow lifters in the final (I think due to some of the flippers breaking down before the fight), and we ended up with one of the most boring fights i have seen in a long time. Its difficult enough for the featherweights to make an impact in a heavyweight arena, and its getting harder to make the featherweight fights entertaining, we've already had to introduce Battleaxe, and in last weekends final we opened the pit from the start and had the flipper active (which we don't normally do in comp' fights) in an attempt to try and liven up the fight.

Therefore im proposing that for competitions, all robots must have an active weapon. This is something that has come up several times in the past. With the introduction of the 13.6kg weight limit a couple of years back, its easy enough. As its now getting to a point where if we have many more of the fights like the final at worthing, we would have to look at reducing the featherweight fights to one per show. I still think the feathers have a place in the show, people can relate more to the size of them, and can see them building such a thing, and with the likes of Explosion, LH2, LF2, TinyHurtz etc they do provide entertainment, but to have something like Thor and Iron Awe fighting and then going into 6/8 drill powered feathers, it just slows the whole show down.

I know people are going to say that beginners don't have the skills/money to fit a weapon, but simple weapons can be built easily and without much cost. Im not suggesting that they all go out and fit FP flippers. I don't know how the other EOs feel about it, and what they think. I would still allow machines without weapons to run in whiteboards, but the only other option i see is either dropping a featherweight fight (pushing more machines into the one fight) or letting the House Robot having more freedom (which basically more damage, being put on flipper ect), I try to be as reserved as possible with it at the moment but you have to remember, i have to look at it from and audiences point of view, at the end of the day they're paying for the arena to be there.

So let me know your thoughts, or see if this thread is going to die like nearly every other on this forum!

Alan

[mattsdragons]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

i think letting the house bot put bots on the flipper etc would be great but only having oe feather fight per show would be boring for us that cant afford to build HW's. ram bots still have a place since bots like Bonx and stiff breeze are amazing bots and are both still rammers

[blazerbotics]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Bonx & Stiff breeze are good, and entertaining as they both do 15mph+ where as most drill powered bots only do a third of that.

[craig_colliass]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Is Seraph boring? :shock:
Tron is for me, and that's when I'm driving the thing!

I would say the fights are more interesting when there are more than six or seven robots starting, I don't know if it would be good for the sport, but I think the event organisers should try new things to make the shows more popular and profitable.

Good luck with the debate Alan

[teamshock]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

I can see the point of introducing this rule for the competition fights as recently I have been finding the featherweights becoming more and more boring to the point where our 2 flippers Whirlwind and Heatwave are being taken apart so that the valves can be reused in our new heavyweight.

The problem that I have is that in order to make the fights entertaining for the crowd we fill the arena with about 20 robots most of them being pushers or lifters which are not that interesting even with large numbers the ones that really make the fights interesting are the flippers and axes which there are not enough of.

I understand that to try and make things more interesting we need things such as the house robots and arena flipper but I think that these may have gone a little too far in terms of power and damage. At Worthing for example Whirlwind suffered a fair bit of damage from the floor flipper very early on and as a result could not be used in any more fights and I believe that explosion suffered with the same issue which immediately removed both of the FP flippers that were at the event from the remaining fights. At other events I have also had the same problem with Battleaxe retiring our robots earlier than we would have liked.

Personally I think that the featherweight fights were much more entertaining a few years ago when you had no more that 8 or so robots in the arena with ones such as Little Flipper clearing the arena the audience reaction was much better than seeing them all hit the roof in the first fight and having no robots left for the later shows.

Hopefully this makes sense and doesn't sound too much like I'm ranting but this my view

[blazerbotics]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Seraph i would classify as having a weapon, and isn't boring. I agree more robots , the better, but it seems by the end of the event, not enough are running. Maybe we scrap the competition and just do all whiteboards for the feathers?

I understand what your saying Will, i do try and not attack the more advanced robots, but sometimes they are the only/first ones immobile, so I dont get alot of choice! I do only try and give them one hit, Battleaxe is basically as low powered as it can be, i can turn it up alot more, but dont. I have thought about having a lower power setting on the flipper for the feathers.

[Bodge Job]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Maybe you have to have a weapon, or a robot which goes over a certain speed, so the proper rambots can still fight, like Tiny Toon, because they actuly cause damage apon impacts, and it's less boring seeing them fly around the arena...

[Anttazz]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

I fear that introducing this rule will be critically bad for the sport. Choosing if a robot is good enough to compete before it even enters the arena by what components it has or whether or not it has a weapon is not a good way to go I say. Afterall, the experienced guys won't be there forever and its already a complicated and expensive game to get into nevermind adding all these extra requirements and expenses onto it along the way.

It might be slightly more boring for the audiences if there are only one or two high impact active weapons such as HP flippers and axes, but it would be a lot more boring if there were no robots allowed to compete at all.

Doesn't seem like there would be any way into the sport either, I mean Beetles need an active weapon so a lot of the Feather guys are getting involved with that, but if Feathers also need an active weapon then it seems to me like what was originally jumping in at the deep end for most people has become jumping into the shark infested ocean.

[RogueTwoRobots]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

I raised this as an issue a couple of years back (seemed more recent than that!) and it certainly prompted some debate:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2812

The overall impression I got was that;

a) there were a lot of people supporting it, but not as many as those against it
b) enforcing an active weapon rule could not be done by the FRA as it goes against one of the FRA's core aims (promoting the sport of robotic combat in all shapes and forms, or words to that effect) and that it should be left to the discretion of the EO whether they implement an active weapon policy.

My position on the matter remains the same; I am all for a active weapon rule for featherweights that applies for competitions only. By that, I mean if you want to enter the UK Featherweight Championships, your robot has to have a weapon. If you want to fight in whiteboards, you don't need to have a weapon.

I classed whiteboards as all fights at Roaming Robots and Robots Live! events as I've never really thought of the FW fights at these events as being competitions (at least not compared to full-combat championships) but if you run separate competition and whiteboard events then the rule could always apply to the competition side of fights, as you have proposed Alan. At the end of the day, you're the EO and it's your job to make the show interesting enough to entice the viewing public to pay up, so you're free to make that call.

Then there are the arguments that you can stick a servo on a FW with a toothpick on it and call it a weapon. Hope that stance doesn't arise in this debate as, frankly, it's a crap and out-dated way to look at such a proposal and I would hope that the roboteering community would be above that.

And just to clarify, I consider robots like Seraph to have active weapons (that goes for horizontal thwackbots as well). And I also accept that a robot like 540 was exciting to watch despite not having a weapon. But my opinion still stands.

[RogueTwoRobots]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Forgot to add, if this rule was implemented, I would be in favour of a beginner's clause. Basically, if you've built your first robot, which doesn't have a weapon, and haven't fought before (or only fought in whiteboards) then you would be granted one 'free pass' to a competition event. You'd be allowed to compete in the event without a weapon, but if you wished to enter competition events in the future, you'd have to incorporate a weapon or compete with a new weaponised bot. The logistics of regulating who has fought in what and when would be a nightmare, but it prevents total exclusion of a new roboteer (my first robot was a weaponless piece of crap but the experience of the event helped me improve future incarnations)

[widow_twanky]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Seraph i would classify as having a weapon, and isn't boring. I agree more robots , the better, but it seems by the end of the event, not enough are running. Maybe we scrap the competition and just do all whiteboards for the feathers?

I understand what your saying Will, i do try and not attack the more advanced robots, but sometimes they are the only/first ones immobile, so I dont get alot of choice! I do only try and give them one hit, Battleaxe is basically as low powered as it can be, i can turn it up alot more, but dont. I have thought about having a lower power setting on the flipper for the feathers.

Not too fussed on the whole active weapon rule but I would say we need to be better about providing info on how to do it. Simple fact is an active weapon rule make it harder to get into the sport. Whilst i accept that they are simple to make when you know how, it's the knowing how bit which can be a bit daunting (wiki anybody??)

Oh and also about push bots. Tiny Toon, 540 etc can be really good to watch. Maybe it's simply a limitation on the motors you can use (eg: if you use drills or bosch 35's then you need a weapon etc). High speed impacts are a very effective weapon and tbh you can make a good mod 1 gearbox using some plastic a hack saw and a drill.

As far as battle axe goes I find it tends to cause far more damage than Major Damage ever does. I think the reason for this is pretty simple and that's the weight of the axe head and the size of the impact surface. i think MD's axe head is hollow so actually less destructive. Maybe something to consider as it would have no bearing on the show but would mean you do less damage to the feathers so they end up running for longer. (although i would accept that MD does do a bit more damage running over stuff

[Anttazz]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

To that effect Jamie, as you know, I intend to have a weapon fitted by the next Robochallenge full combat event but if I didn't I don't think I would like having to not enter the event because my robot wasn't up to scratch. As boring as I find Cicatrix to drive around pretending to push stuff, I like coming along to events even if my robots happened to be total scrap, you can spend a weekend with mates who you only see once a year (in our case anyway) and get the rare opportunity (again, in our case) to see/take part in a live robot event.

I hope you don't see that comment as being directed against you, as i'm sure you know I wouldn't be a part of the sport if it wasn't for you. It's just an an alternative view to your point .

[Ellis]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

I've never been to an event, but I am building my first featherweight (or combat robot for that matter). It's 4 drills, 18v, and a simple 4-bar lifter style weapon powered by a 5th drill. To me, I know that's kinda lame. Drills are quite powerful but they're nothing in full combat. A lifter is slow and boring, too. I fully understand that.

But,

I don't have the money nor facilities to go out and make a competitive axe weapon, or a beefy full-body hammer, or a FP flipper, or what have you. A simple robot is all I can make at this stage. I have to say that I'd understand the reason for wanting more exciting robots, but I wouldn't necessarily feel very good knowing that my robot is so rubbish to the point where it's not allowed to be viewed by an audience. I think in the roboteer's point of view a newcomer event would be acceptable. If you're not able to accept the fact that your robot is a first robot, it's made out of chopping boards and a drill or 3, which puts it at the lower end of desirability scale, maybe you shouldn't be in the game. So, a few fights which aren't laughable, and are fully supported by everyone, designed to get newcomers into the sport and help them improve their robots would be fine, in fact a very good thing. I don't think completely eliminating the newbies from the audience or competition side of view is quite right somehow. It would make the supposedly fun hobby into somewhat of a chore, wouldn't it?

As you say a simple lifter is easy to make for a few quid if you have the parts around the house. That kind of robot I feel should be allowed to compete, since a lifter isn't a damaging weapon, but it's a tactical weapon, and your robot could potentially do well in a competition environment. If your robot is just a box powered by 2 drills run on the cheapest speedos and some sort of rampy bit on the front, which when looked at realistically isn't going to be winning anything unless luck plays a role, sure, maybe such simple robots could be excluded from the main competition, somehow.

Problem is it's a very touchy subject. Hard to not insult people making more simple robots, hard to not push away potential newcomers to the sport, hard to make the show interesting, and therefore hard to keep the money flowing and to make an income at these events. I can't see a compromise quite yet, other than a side competition which could be just a single fight, or maybe an annihilator style fight, where all of the newcomers pitch their drill powered HDPE creations. Maybe for a goal, whoever wins the newcomer competition, gets to compete in the main competition with the big boys.

I don't know, in truth. As I said, I've never been to an event and know no one on this site other than mutually. Maybe I shouldn't be in this thread at all.

[RogueTwoRobots]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

No offence taken Tony, I know such a proposal would affect your robots based on their current state, and would have been problematic had it been implemented prior to this year's UK champs. You make a good point about it being rather quite limiting to people who are only able to attend one or two events a year, and I know no-one would ever want to prevent people from enjoying the social side of events either. Nice to have a bit of interesting debate on the issue though

I think Andy has raised a valid point too and that is regarding information available with regards to making/implementing a weapon system. I keep wanting to try and write some guides and what-not but admittedly I'm guilty of not being motivated enough. There is some form of Wiki in the works which I believe Kane is working hard on, but at the same time we can't expect him to do everything with respect to guides, how-to's, resources etc. A lot of good information is out there too, it's just lost among endless threads and posts.

[psychostorm]

Re: Featherweights - Active weapon rule

Maybe we scrap the competition and just do all whiteboards for the feathers?

TBH one of things you could do is let anyone not in the competition final to the 2nd qualifier.

I must wonder though with all spinners banned & most featherweights hiding beneath the arena barrier, Exactly what can be done to make featherweights
more interesting?

We can't all tape inflated sheep to the top.

Speaking of this actuated weapon stuff, if everybody wants active weapons why was the last commercial weapon kit the zeobot actuator?