Hobbyweights anyone?

[grant_ploughbot]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Yes it is, but i mean the sport of fighting robots isnt purely based around the public, they are a big part of it, but it could survive withought pubilic veiwers.
Im saying that I would rather pay to go to an event where you do what everyone wants to do than go for free to an event where what us roboteers want is just thrown out the window.
Do you understand what im trying to say? That why should we be almost punished (iltho not quite the rite word to use) by not being able to fight a new weight class at most events because the public don;t want us to.
As Ive said yes Rc Wars will run them t almost any event aslong as there are enough because its what people want to do, i mean who will want to go to an event where there not able to run one or more of their robots when they have spent time and money making it to fight? Fair enough smaller robots most likley wont be very entertaining to watch, but atleast you have fun fighting them. And thats what mostly matters, If a roboteer doesnt have fun, then they wont want to go will they.........
I hope you all understand what im trying to say, the public shouldnt stop an official 6kg weight class, or any popular weight class for that instance!

Grant

[fwsorg]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Big weight classes are a spectator sport I agree. Featherweights and below could probably survive pretty happily without the public. Thats not to say having the public isnt a good thing- FW.org wouldnt spend so long trying to organsise events with the public if we didnt think that. But 6kg weight classes could work perfectly happiliy without the public. Its not the be all and end all! There may be an eventual demise of heavies (I hope not, but it been widely predicted for a year or so), but small weight classes can exist perfectly well. Its nice to show off what are sport and hobby is all about from time to time, but I know of several roboteer only events for feathers in the pipeline- they should be more fun and more relaxed, certainly from an EOs point of view, and may set the tone for future events. Im sure there would be more non public events if it werent for the fact that some members of the community rely on paying public for their income.

[storm]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Grant, no-one is saying the public are stopping us from doing anything. What Im trying to say is that :

There are a finite number of builders in the UK, with a finite amount of money.

They more weight classes you encourage people to build, the fewer people there will be in each class.

The fewer people there are in each class, the less fights you get, the fewer robots can take part in competition, and thus the less innovation you get per weight class.

My post was a warning to people to think carefully before setting a precedent that extra weight classes can be added at will.

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

[stu]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Also it depends on the type of event/show you have. You take an event like Preston which you went to Grant - you would have know the Feather Weights were not really a good crowd pleaser for over 1500 sitting paid public, if im honest, the heavy weigths only just did them selves justice.
At Feather Weight Smash 2003 and 2004 - we gave the ant weights a bigger than normal role there given at a live event, and the public loved it, thats only coz there wasnt over 1500 people at our event.

Ed didnt say that public or other roboteers would stop anyone building a 6kg robot. This is geting silly - do what you like in all honesty. Some people even build 250g robot,s i built one before. If an event has arena time, yeah go for it. I think this topic has just been blown out of poportion due to people mis reading and taking other peoples views the wrong way.

Mr Stu

[grant_ploughbot]

Hobbyweights anyone?

you sat im not listning to what you have written, i think its quite the other way around.
people wont stop using a robot from one class just because there is a newer class.
i wouldnt stop using my feather just to fight a 6kg robot, i dont see why you have this thought locked in your head that this wil happen, 6 kg robots may influence newcomers to build bigger and better robots, but i think its a very good starting point for people to learn.
from reding posts that roboteers say to newcomers to build an ant weight rather than a feather at first i really think these 6kg robots will take their interests more than ants and as feathers are possibly too hard to build at a very competative level.
I think Eddy understands what im saying, Ed, just try and look at it from all sides before trying to immediatly string out a new weight class.
thanks, grant

[storm]

Hobbyweights anyone?

*sighs* Im not even going to bother Grant

.... should we introduce a 3Kg class for the people who find 6Kg a bit tough too ?

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

[fwsorg]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Im not sure I do understand- Ed has a point. It does dilute things, and importantly what I dont think youre realising is that it becomes very confusing for newcomers. I am fairly sure that its easier for newcomers to start with feathers. Thats was the arguement that was being used a year ago.

We MUST NOT get on the slipperly slope of finding that 6kgers become to complicated and so invent a 3kg weight class. 6kers will become too hard to build at a very competitive level. You must avoid using this arguement. It will get us no where. I see 6kers as a fun aside for feather builders.

Please do not introduce them as a route in- stick with established routes in for which there are more events- which is what newcomers want. It is good that RC wars will provide events, at least it would be if there didnt seem to be such a secretive stigma attached.

I also think Ed is being relistic- I would not be for this being recognised as a new weight class officially. Dilution is a problem when youre talking reasonably big money which we are. I am fairly confident you will get discruntled newcomers who will be annoyed that theyve been ancouraged to build 6kgers only to find its the feathers having fun every 2/3 weeks. Please lets not go own this route.

[stu]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Its only coz RC Wars are building and making and are going to sell 6kg Robot Kits.

Mr Stu

[fluppet]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Not sure I dare post to this thread...

Id just prepared a big (well, not by my standards) post to say that the community will find its own level, and roboteers will only be pulled from the existing categories if theres a benefit to the new one; therefore the new category will die out if there are no roboteers converting to it, no robots in it, and therefore no place to fight. I have to agree with Grant that my motivation to build (when I get there) is based on the challenge of building, not on crowd-pleasing.

However, I have to agree that confusing the newbies (with whom I vaguely group myself, still) would be a bad thing; to a lesser extent the same is true of the crowd. Id be interested to see people fighting at 6kg, just in an informal heres a 6kg robot, build one to fight against it, I think this category brings its own unique challenges sense - we might learn something - but the official categories are quite enough. Arguably too many, since so few middleweights exist. On the other hand, as we get higher grade arenas, Id be interested to see whether more people build superheavyweights.

I would like to say that there are some very scary feathers out there, though. One reason I want to build a heavyweight is that there are *friendly* fights between heavies; I can build a heavy which will lose in such a way that it doesnt cost me a fortune to repair it, unless I enter full combat events (no way, for my first few robots). If I enter a feather, as far as I can see theres a sporting chance the whole thing will need a rebuild - not just the chains reattached, a few welds repaired, some dents banged out, a panel or two replaced and a few wires resoldered (which Id consider to be pretty major damage on a heavy, but still minor repair work). Daimon losing a wheel (twice) to Scorpion Jr. was instructive, and people talking about translational spinners arent encouraging me to take that route into the sport.

As it happens, I dont have a problem with entering directly with a heavyweight (other than a little bit of saving up), but if feathers are seen as the way in then maybe we should be watching this.

Back on topic: build the robot, arrange some opponents, ask an event organizer if you can put on a show event (like the show sports at the Olympics). If it takes off, it takes off, but it needs to displace the existing categories on its own merit. Maybe 6kg really is a better entry point than current feathers, but lets prove it in the arena rather than deciding the categories in advance.

If these things are kit built, thats arguably a different matter - perhaps the kit should be part of the category (like Rexs Robot Challenge having additional requirements). I dont see a problem with putting on some show fights (you know, for kids), but if feathers are the official category then its more likely that people will aspire to make a step up. Theres also a good chance that a self-built machine at 6kg will be less effective than one built from a kit, and that has to be discouraging; I can see the point to keeping them separate.

Have I managed to walk a middle line, or am I going to get rotten eggs thrown from both sides? :-)

--
Fluppet

[fwsorg]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Pretty central Andrew;-) The problem with introducing them as a way in is that weve seen the same thing happen over the years. Weve seen how radiply feathers have evolved with the benefit of experience from bulding heavies. I see no reason why 6kgers wont almost immediatelly jump to the same standard- no easier for a newbie to build. Feathers are substantial but not unwieldy, not that cheap, but considerably cheaper than heavies, and theres a massive and rapidly growing support base for them. They really are the weight class for newbies (excluding those such as yourself who are familiar with all the technology and so on anyway). I really think pushing 6kgers as the new entry level weight class will have a detrimental effect.

[storm]

Hobbyweights anyone?

It would appear that RC Wars do plan to sell 6Kg kits, so suddenly their motives for arguing here seem clear.

And Grants post from earlier

And Ed, you seem to thing its us Coopers making a huge fuss over things, its not, we want just what Ian and many others want, a new class at low prices, and its a good way of testing out new feather designs without spending much money.

Seems to me what you actually should have said was were making a fuss as we have financial gain from the 6Kg class. Looks like Eddy was right about that secretive stigma as well - why not just be honest about whats motivating you ?

Ive no issue with anyone selling a 6Kg robot, its nothing to do with me, however....this means that

I hope you all understand what im trying to say, the public shouldnt stop an official 6kg weight class

translates to

People shouldnt stop a 6Kg class being created as we plan to earn from it

I dont believe a 6Kg class will benefit the sport at a whole. By all means run a 6Kg class in RC Wars, but I find it extremley unlikley that any 6Kg class will become an official class guys !

On that basis, will your customers be satisfyed with buying a product that they cant run at all the events that go on over the summer ? Suddenly (and ironically) you find yourself being at the beck and call of that public again and what they might want as a product.

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

[typhoon_driver]

Hobbyweights anyone?

I know that its completely off topic, but dam those americans

http://www.valleysolar.com/lwbot1.asphttp://www.valleysolar.com/lwbot1.asp

grrrrr.........

[blazerbotics]

Hobbyweights anyone?

weve seen similar things with the superants and kilo bots, people thought they would be a good idea but ended up being abit of a flop. If RCwars are planning to sell the kits then it obviosly puts a whole new light on their view.

is this one of those threads that will go on for pages but still end up without a solution?

[stu]

Hobbyweights anyone?

Could Do Alan, we just never know - the truth is out there...

Mr Stu

[grant_ploughbot]

Hobbyweights anyone?

I just wrote a huge post about my veiws and facts but the cat jumped on escape so i cant be bothered to type it all out again so i will vaigly point out the facts.

Rc Wars is not up for 6kgbots for money at all, the kits were an idea for any weight class but firstly originated with our 6kg bots. NOTHING has been confirmed yet and everything said about these kits are unreliable second hand information!
I want 6kg bots for many reasons, I have always tested featherweight robots in 6kg before building them as a feather for testing of methods etc, and i have found this to work well with PloughBot and i am currently doing the same for a new feather.
I understand your points about confusing to newcomers, and its a very valid point, but money is out of the question.
Ed you said to be honest here, and i am. Things have been miss heard/read and so false accusations are being portrayed.
Lets just get off this track of trying to prove people wrong i bet everyones sick of it now, i know i am. So what do people really think of these robots? Are they worth being taken seriously or not?
I will keep building, testing and fighting with them whatever happens...

Thanks Grant