A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

thanks gary for sayng a chain came off and christian I strongly think you should apologise to me. its as simple as if gary and the team knew the chain came off before the deciscion then its poor sportsmanship that they accepted the prize on the basis they took no damage and that they stood there without saying a word. if they didnt know before getting the prize then i guess theres nowt they could have done

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Why should I appologize to you? Im not the one who accused Gary of lying. Have you missed this part?

Well one of our drive chains did come of at the end of the fight unknown to us.

As Typhoons drive train is very redundant, he simply didnt notice this. You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of lying!

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

my facts are straight christian people were suggesting i was the only person to spot this on tv and that i was making it up i only meant that i felt you should apologise for being so hard on me after all gary only seems to have admitted the damage when pushed. perhaps gary can answer my question and then we will know if they could have said something. did they know before they got back to their robot after the fight that the chain had come off

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

I never said that you had made up the part about the lost chain, that was someone else. I only said that you shouldnt have accused Gary of lying about it.

Typhoons drive train is quite redundant, so its very likely that he didnt notice this. If he says that he didnt know about the missing chain, then I belive him.

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

apologies christian

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

To you? Why?

[fluppet]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Tempers seem to be running a bit high, and since Ive sounded accusatory above I want to defuse a bit of my side of the argument. Im going to have to be a bit verbose (even by my standards) to try not to mis-speak, so my apologies in advance. Ill start with a response to Franks response to my post.

So, Frank: style wise, I hear what you say. I still think Storm put on the better show, but since Mentorn seem to have a dislike of shove-bots maybe their opinion is different. All I can say is that I would have judged it differently, at least on the screened footage (which I gather from another thread may not quite have been representative). Id have judged it *so* differently that I was astonished that they would disagree. Thats the only reason I was seeking clarification.

Regarding my suggestion that Storms damage should score less because it was self inflicted... youre absolutely right, I was talking unmitigated garbage, and I apologise unreservedly. On occasion Im a big (or at least, fat) enough man to admit it. :-)

For Storm/Typhoon each taking damage, I should have clarified what I was saying. Pending (at the time) information about drive train damage, I happily conceded that Storm apparently took more damage, and most definitely had a few dings out of it besides the missing panel. I was only suggesting that Craigs claim that Typhoon was completely undamaged seemed unlikely, and indicating that I didnt entirely trust the judgement of the judges based on their past record. As it happens, they apparently didnt notice a missing drive chain (Gary was in no position to indicate one way or the other - Im just talking about the judges here), so I reserve my right to doubt their abilities.

So for the maths, that was how I assumed the scores break down too - its just that I would have scored Storm ahead on style. Even with the weighting for damage, Id have scored only a smallish amount of damage to T2 and the other categories significantly to Storm. Only on TV coverage, of course. Im not saying I have a right to be a judge, and Im not saying that Ed should take legal recourse for anything. :-) My posts here are purely to express an opinion and to try to gain understanding.

Gary - thank you for clearing up the confusion about the chain, and for comporting yourself so well under the trial of this forum! Well done Gary S for spotting it, but I still think youre a bit out of order in accusing Gary (C) of any skullduggery, or at least in suggesting that there is a significant possibility that his behaviour was less than honourable - theres no evidence of that. The judges should have spotted it (maybe they did, and didnt pass the information on to Craig) but if they didnt then thats not Garys problem. I dont want us to end up with another Razer/Tornado situation with accusations flying around (and with no evidence on any of the situations myself). The roboteering community isnt large enough that we should have teams falling out over misunderstandings.

Incidentally, credit is due to Gary for actively targeting the loose panel. The TV footage only really showed Storm attacking Typhoon (although I guess ensuring that theres a particular point of impact is about the best you can do anyway with a large speed difference between robots), so that implies that the footage was, as reported elsewhere, not entirely fair to T2, and that Gary deserves more control/aggression points that I gave him credit for. (That said, driving yourself into the wall is minus quite a lot...) As Ive said before, I felt Eds strategy should have been different at the end of this fight, and he paid for it. Not that I would expect for a moment to be able to do nearly so well behind the controls - just picking on (perceived) imperfections as I try to learn.

Richard: agreed wholeheartedly. This *was* a controversial fight, and I think its instructive to get everyones views on it - and I reserve the right to express my own opinions. Im obviously not stating that Im in any way right - the judges decision is final, and for all the ranting Gary is indubitably the rightful holder of the title (so I agree, Christian). I dont think, so long as the manner of the discussion is clinical and not one which casts aspersions about the teams, that theres any harm in a friendly debate. Unfortunately its always going to appear that Gary - as the holder of the title - is being criticised if someone feels that he shouldnt have won the title. I hope Gary is big enough to accept the discussion without feeling in any way offended by it; all evidence is that he is, but I want to make it clear here that nobody should feel attacked by my postings.

Both Gary and Ed have always behaved impeccably on these fora, and have continued to do so regarding this contest. Im sorry if my opinions about this decision reflect in any way badly on Gary - mind you, anyone taking my viewpoint with more than a pinch of salt in comparison with Garys spotless record are obviously too delusional to listen to in the first place. :-)

Let me restate this in order to appeal even to that minority: I have not the slightest problem with either of the teams regarding this final (or, with the exception of extra damage to Atomic for which Gary has already apologised, for any other fight).

I was surprised by - and wanted to learn about - the decision of the judges, and reserve the right to be a little accusatory if I cant be persuaded of their decision. (As it happens, I can vaguely see how they got it, but from the shown footage I happen to disagree - and I dont have to like it, or hold a high opinion of their judgement because of it.) I also think the fight was influenced in an unfair manner by the (presumably) directorial decisions regarding post-arena damage behaviour and the noninvolvement of the house robots. None of these factors are in any way under the control of the competitors.

So, again, congratulations to Gary - and I look forward to seeing the feathers running. And, of course, to a rematch in the future.

Phew. All still friends? :-)

--
Fluppet

[typhoon_driver]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Im glad that you have all taken the chain coming off so well as i was in two minds before making that post as i didnt want to give people more attack each other about etc but I thought that everyone here as loyal veiwers of robotic combat were entitled to know.

I think we can all agree that it was a contraversial final but then it wouldnt be robot wars without one!

I would be up for a rematch with storm 2, especially with some of the upgrades we have planned! Although as usual with us being in the military and all we have to keep them quiet at the moment.

[fluppet]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

:-) I think you can trust at least half of us to deal with the facts in the appropriate manner, and to shout down the at most half of us who dont! Big hand for bracing yourself and coming clean, if you were expecting yet more criticism.

Dont suppose youre willing to share some of your technology for shock-proofing, now weve seen the robot naked? Obviously your secret improvements are going to make it all obsolete... Otherwise I can see an evening poring over a video frame by frame. :-)

--
Fluppet

[storm]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Storm II vs Tornado

Re comment on dodgy editing : Yes there was some dodgy editing. Refbot pressed the pit release button, we had Tornado on the scoop down at the roboteer end of the arena, and on seeing what was going on - I scooted them down and straight into the pit. The audience cheered (as did we), but then the pit was raised back up again, and Tornado drove out.

Storm II vs Typhoon

1) Could we reach Typhoon before spin up ?

Yes we could have done easily. However chose as a tactic to stalk them around the arena, moving in for a high speed hit when we chose. Why ? Because we knew it was unlikley Typhoon could do enough damage to stop us. We were right. There was no need to hit Typhoon unless we wanted to. This was a tactical call. The plan was to deliver Typhoon to the house robots (specifically Matilda). However every time we took them to a HR, the HRs backed off.

2) Did a chain come off Typhoon ?

Yes it did, and yes Gary was aware of it (Im uncertian as to why he may have said otherwise). You could see it in the footage on TV. At the end it was picked up by Chris Reynolds in the arena, we all spotted it from the interview booth whilst waiting for the judges deciscion. How they failed to see it is unknown.

3) What broke on Storm II

Each front scoop panel has fixings on either side. Some of these sheared and 2 welds cracked at the end of the fight causing the panel to come loose. This in itself didnt give us any concern as the space under the scoop is a sacrificial void anyway. Theres nothing underneath.

4) What internal damage was there to Storm II

None. The only damage was the panel.

5) What damage did Typhoon take ?

Gary has since confirmed in an MSN convo that Typhoon had damage to its freewheel that allows it to spin up the weapon and were given time during the break to work on it to get it going again so they could spin up. We were offered the chance to work on Storm II, but we declined, as we didnt believe it was in the spirit of the competition. They lost a drive chain from one of their wheels during the fight - Gary said one of their wheel pods had been damaged before during the fight with XT (during which they also threw a chain). I do not know why neither of these two bits of damage (unstartable weapon and damage to drive) were not taken into account. Typhoon had overheated inside and as a result the engine kept stalling.

6) What about Typhoon hitting the wall ?

Yes it seemed unfair to allow Typhoon to spin up to the speed they were going before hitting the wall. After all, it was their fault they hit it, and the fact it broke wouldnt change the fact that if it hadnt, they still would have slowed down. We were uncertian as to why they were allowed to spin up for the sake of continuity when the fight had been stopped in the footage anyway.

7) Franks if you think Storm 2 took absolutely no internal damage from being hit so hard they spun around the arena, you have another thing coming comment.

There was no internal damage to Storm II. Anyone there at the time will back this up. We did not take any hits from Typhoon anywhere other than that front plate.

What you didnt see

In our attempt to get the house robots to attack Typhoon we repeatedly held Typhoon up in the air in at least 2 of the CPZ for 30 seconds a time. On one occasion Matilda simply drove away out of the CPZ, and on another occasion no house robots came to the CPZ that we were in. Other than that what you saw was almost exactly as it appeared and if you time the footage that becomes apparent. This fight didnt suffer from heavy editing other than that.

Our view

The way we saw it was, we had lost a single body panel. Typhoon had suffered material damage to their drive system, and their weapon was inoperable (for a number of reasons) and not running for much of the fight. Our belief was that this would hold us in good stead. We believed that the judges would rate the drive/weapon affecting damage beyond the panel that came off Storm II. We were confident we had won in Control, Aggression and Style without question.

After chatting to the judges at the end, it became clear that they never looked under the lid and soley went on the external damage. The chain that was recovered from the arena from Typhoon never made it to the judges. We got an apology from the crew, director, producer and judges who realised the mistake, but we were past the point of no return at that point.

As we said at the top of this thread however, a win is a win. Few people on the day agreed with it, and we all felt awful standing up there with Gary holding the trophy and all we could here was booing.

Typhoon got the deciscion. Whether it was right or not is going to be debated for months I suspect, but theres nothing anyone can do to change it now.

On the note of welding, following my comment of Im going to learn to weld were happy to welcome on board SIP as a major sponsor for 2004, who are going to teach us to weld ! More on that later.

Roll on the World Championships - and if Typhoon ever fancy a rematch, they know where to find us !

Ed and Tim
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Gary Simmons, Ive just read all the posts under this topic for the fifth time, but I still cant understand why I should appoligize to you?

I never said that you had made up the part about the missing chain, that was someone else. The only thing I said was that you shouldnt have accused Gary of lying about it.

[fluppet]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

In response to Christian: I did use the word apparently about Gary Ss chain spotting. ( :-) ) I meant that only in the sense that Id not spotted it myself and hadnt yet seen it, and nobody had confirmed it. If Im the source of his dissent, then he has my apologies if he feels I was disputing him. I take nothing as read from anyone who only saw TV footage until confirmed by a roboteer, so he shouldnt feel disparaged by my comments.

Ed: Oh dear, here we go again. :-) Id heard the judges say that their was no surface damage, but Id presumed it was a precursor to an internal inspection; guess I overestimated their competence after all!

Everything else seems to follow my impressions from the footage - which presumably means that, for once, the footage wasnt edited to pieces.

Garys said that he was aware of the chain after hed inspected the robot (after, presumably, getting the prize) - Ed, could this have been the source of confusion? Im sure things are very confusing at such an event, and the competitors will each have a slightly biased view just as a result of looking at the fight with the hope of a particular robot winning - although you have the best knowledge of what happened, youre in the worst possible position to be objective about it. Not that it makes a difference to the result, but Id hate this to be the start of ill feeling between the teams.

As for how the judges reached their decision - well, nothing would surprise me after all these years. The most astonishing thing to me about the episode was that JP noticed the drive chain had come off XTs weapon within a minute of it happening (although that didnt seem to be the only problem).

Anyway, I say again that Im sorry Garys win is tempered by such ill feeling, and Im sorry for Ed that - especially since his report confirms my original impression - he was robbed (by the director and the judges, not by Gary). I commend them both for handling the situation so well.

And as Ed says, roll on the World Championships!

--
Fluppet

[darkguru]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

This is getting rediculous, all this fighting over something we cannot change.

I stand by my own opinions, other people have different opinions, maybe if this, that or the other would have happened, the outcome would had been different...it wasnt so stop argueing over it!

Ed, Gary, good fight, it had me entertained. Thank you.

[Guest]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Gary Ss final apologies Christian means I am apologising. Its a bit of English idiom which can be all too easily misread as apologise if one is unaware of it.

I dont know how this phrase came to be, but I assume it is a contraction of various phrases along the lines of I offer my humble apologies.

[fluppet]

A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.

Chris - this isnt an argument, its a full and frank exchange of views. :-)

Seriously, I think everyone knows the result is what it is, and isnt going to be changed. I happen to be interested both in the minutiae of what happened, and in the psychological study of peoples opinions of the fight.

I think *both* teams deserve some support, respect and sympathy for being in this situation, along with putting on, as you say, a good fight. I dont think, so long as we bear that in mind, theres a problem with people sharing their opinions - I, at least, am interested in hearing them.

But I certainly agree, lets not fight.

--
Fluppet