Pinning

[craig_colliass]

Here is the rule for Pinning please read carefully

It is not permitted to pin an opponent for more than 10 seconds, for example, where one robot pins its opponent to the arena side or floor.

After the robot is released the opponent must back away.

It is bad sportsmanship to continually pin an opponent intentionally

however it is understood that some weapon designs may necessitate this
.
Robots that utilise a crushing or gripping design to hold their opponent must release within 30 seconds.
In the event that both robots become entangled the fight may be stopped and the robots separated
.
During melees both of the entangled robots may be deemed immobile.

My question is how far should the robot back away, dose this mean the opponent should be permitted to get back on their wheels before the fight starts again.

I don't know the answer to this the rules aren't clear, at the moment the robot that has been stacked on the side, the other robot backs away and then pushes the stacked robot before they are mobile, this dose comply to the letter of the rule but the robot that is immobile can't get going again.
with Saint, Gabriel and even Cherub this hasn't been a problem for me. but it would be nice to clear up this point before the competitions.

[cliveb]

I seem to ask for clarification on this rule at every championship. Nowhere in the current rule set does it set out the penalty for bad sportsmanship. It is down to the judges interpretation of what they decide. Which in my mind is totally wrong.

In football if a player is injured and his team put the ball out of play, play is restarted with a throw in to the opposition. If they choose not to give possession back this is bad sportsmanship, but there is no punishment that can be implemented.

How can a championship be decided on an unclear rule? If the judges decide to dock points where is this in the rule set?

To my mind the penalty for " bad sportsmanship" currently is nothing.

Clive

[botmad]

Hi Clive and all other Roboteers . with regards the pinning rule we have had discussions on this in the past .... Here is how I read it as a Judge .... Pinning is Allowed for 10 seconds at which point the Pinning robot BACKS OFF 1.5 meters and at that point is back in play and free to re engage in combat thus showing me playing by the rules and GOOD Sportsmanship ... In the event of a crushing or clamping Robot the pinning is Allowed for 30 seconds at which point the pinned or clamped robot is released and again Backed off to the 1.5 meter distance then re engaging in combat... Again showing the rule have been followed and GOOD Spotsmanship ...... Now ...... If A Robot is relentless in the pinning and continues to pin for more than 10 seconds without backing off less than say 1.5 meters and continuing to pin the robot ... this is an infringement on the rules and would loose the point gained from the initial pin ....also by not releasing from the pinning and backing off ... showing UN sportsman like conduct at this point I would consult with the two other Judges as to DOCKING a further point ...........
However there could arise a situation where a robot is lets say 3 points up it then pins an opponent for the rest of the match ... loosing 1 point for breaking the pinning rule .. loosing 1 point for UN sportsman like conduct ... would win on a points score of +1 .. I would see this as a clear and definite ( NOT CHEATING ) But UN SPORTSMAN LIKE CONDUCT and would confer with the other two Judges to disqualify the robot .......... BUT this is only how I read it and how I would like to JUDGE it ........... I AM ALSO open to a clarification being put into the rules so will be in touch with Kane at the end of this post ...

[craig_colliass]

I think there may need to be a distinction between pinning and stacking.
For me pinning is stopping the robot from moving but it is still on it's wheels, and stacking is when the robot is against the barrier or something similar, and the robot is on it's side or back or has been lifted so the wheels are off the ground.
I suppose the problem arises when a robot is stacked but will only remain stacked by pinning.
I think this constitutes pinning.
A simple answer is after 10 seconds the pinning robot must reverse about 3-4 meters back or to the centre of the arena which ever is the shorter and then can re-engage.

Bad sportsmanship is ambiguous, I know what it means to me, but I don't think you can get a universal definition that covers every single situation, so I would tend to use it in the code of conduct guidelines and not in the rules section.

but that's my opinion.

[cliveb]

I agree in principle Pete, but as you say that is currently your opinion and not a rule, and competitions should not be judged on an opinion, disqualification is not in the rules or even point deduction.

If the rules are changed it has to be passed at the AGM, not weeks before a major event. I have been trying to make this point for so long, and now we have another world championship with the same situation.

As I have said before I just want a fair and level playing field for EVERYONE.

If you are trapped in the corner being attacked by an axe does this count as pinning?

[Garfie489]

There needs to be a general reduction in grey areas within the rules, also in some areas they need to be defined better IMO in order to be fair.

Best example i can think of, if a robot is immobile and being counted out. If another robot goes out of the arena in the meantime its deemed the robot which is immobile to have outlasted the OOTA'd robot - which is clearly not the case.

I dont think anyone would agree Beauty 8 came 2nd in its fight vs Conker and Shard. However Conker left the arena before Beauty 8 was counted out.

[grant_ploughbot]

I think the bad sportsmanship part is worth removing as that should not be judged on in my opinion.
I think pinning is a simple thing to understand though. If a another robot is being held agains a wall or so then the attacking machine needs to back off to give some chance movement. With Tiberius we used to try and pin up the wall to get a good grip, then at 10s release and back off just enough that the other machine had the opportunity to move. This would only be say a second or so in which Tiberius would move to a different angle of the machine in order to get a better attack. Reversing 1.5m or to the middle of the arena seems too much to me. It's basically stating you need to seperate and have an even attack at each other again which I do t feel is fair.

[grant_ploughbot]

There are a couple of rules I think need looking at, such as the one mentioned about about OOTA's. Particularly as it was noted that being thrown out the arena, bouncing off the walls and back in would mean that robot was instantly out.

However I think overall, they are getting very good. And other than the bad sportsmanship part I think pinning is a pretty obvious one to see.

[RogueTwoRobots]

With regards to bouncing off the arena walls and back in, I think the antweights guys go with the guideline that unless the robot hit the deck/moat during the time it was airborne, it's still classed as active when it bounces back into the arena.

Maybe something worth considering, especially factoring in the power level of robots these days. It's probably pretty confusing for the audience too.

Might be worth a new thread if there's a need to debate it.

[botmad]

The OOTA rule we debated this in brief and as such if I remember correctly ... once a robot passes over the arena wall it is deemed OUT ... the fact in could bounce back in off the polly wall is irrespective Ie: the wall does not exist it is only there to protect the audience , roboteers ect so in real terms the robot would stay in flight and land OOTA ...

This was to stop robots trying to selfright in this area in an attempt to selfright back into the arena .....

[Ellis]

If a robot is counted out they should be considered "out" from the start of the countdown, not the end.

A very common scenario is a robot disables another, only to then get thrown OOTA inside their 10 second count, giving the throw-ee robot full points by knock-out. Really isn't logical. An example which happens to be one of my fights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmErh-nLqg

My wall-slam on Glutton killed it (this cam angle doesn't show it very well but it was immobile) and I got thrown out 6 seconds later. In the eyes of the current rules I played the smallest role in the fight, receiving 1 point. I'm not bitter (lol) but it really doesn't make sense!

[grant_ploughbot]

I agree with that mentioned it briefly last year. OOTA's are classed as instant out as it can by unsafe to effectively "battle" in the exclusion zones of the arena, massively so for heavyweight events.
That being said, although you shouldn't be allowed to attempt to get back in the arena, the 10 second countdown should still take place to make the above scenario's fair. And if your bounced off the screen and back in the arena you should still be allowed to fight as you weren't immobile at any time.

[Garfie489]

Really these need to be written down in writing. Otherwise it can be interpretation.

I can think of 2 other examples of the OOTA problem - one of which cost Richie a place in the top 18.

Maybe its worth having a thread dedicated to rule discussions and grey areas? - meeting up once a year might not leave enough time for thought out discussion on everything. Once we have a solution its proposed at the AGM and voted upon.

If you guys think its worthwhile ill set a thread up now and keep it up to date?

[grant_ploughbot]

This thread is as good as any?

[Garfie489]

Only reason id suggest a separate thread is because next year when this is possibly 50 pages long, itll become hard to find what everyone actually agreed upon 6 months ago :P