clarification on rules

[maddox10]

If a machine can pass the current checks "forward, transmitter off, failsafe" rince and repeat for backward left and right it's fine for me.

The less rules the better. Or soon enough there will be a rule that will say you need a robot-control licence.

It's a hobby, not the damned EU.

[typhoon_driver]

I sense a real dislike of the EU from somewhere hmmmmm

[RogueTwoRobots]

Sorry long post, but a few points to address:

I am glad you won with just one drive wheel, but again I don't think you would disagree with me the rules should not be shaped around the occasional fluke!

I don’t think there should be a rule, period. I get the rule about the figure of eight, but it relates to demonstrating movement AFTER a fight, where damage may have been sustained, in order to help the judges decide on a winner when the fight has been closely contested.
I don’t believe there should be a rule created that a robot must demonstrate full movement/figure of eight before a fight in order to be considered a valid contender for that fight. That is something I am 100% sure of and will continue to support.

Reasons:

- In the UK featherweight championship, you get 1 point just for entering the arena in the group stages. That 1 point can be the difference between making it straight through and having to compete in a play-off (or between a play-off and elimination from the competition). This is especially helpful if you take an absolute battering in a fight and have limited repair time, and it’s beneficial to all competitors, not just those with a particular design/weapon type.

- Why should a robot get points just for entering the arena if they’re not fully working, you might ask? Well why should fully working robots get maximum points without doing anything, just because their opponent has only one working drive wheel? (different story if the opponent fails to make it to the arena or has no form of mobility)
In the name of fairness, the fight should be fought. If the fully working robot wins (as will happen in most instances) then that robot has fairly won and its opponent has fairly lost. If the opposite happens then the fully working robot has fairly lost (if it can’t dispatch a partially disabled robot, then that is not the fault of said disabled robot) and the opponent has fairly won. Fluke or not, everything’s fair.

- If a 10-year-old kid has spent all his weekends building a robot, travelled hundreds of miles to be at an event, then been denied the chance to fight his next fight because of one inoperative wheel, then he will be crushed. When I was competing in my younger years, every opportunity to get in the arena was valued and exciting, regardless of the state of the robot. When you’ve come a long way and don’t often get much arena time, each fight is important. And regardless of whether it’s a good robot or not, if you’ve paid money to compete, then I think you should be allowed to start each fight, even on one wheel. Sure the robot might get thrown out or beaten up, but that 10-year-old will be ecstatic that he got his machine into another battle.

In my opinion, if you thought that you had not been given enough time you should have asked for more (which we would have supported), rather than expect special treatment from the judges as a result of this.

The time available was nothing that could have been influenced by asking you to postpone the fight or by asking for more time (both of which I know you wouldn’t have objected to). It was determined by the need to keep the show and competition flowing. Our fight had already been pushed back to the third loser’s melee and the competition couldn’t progress until we fought. Considering there were still other battles to be fought and 20-25 minutes of show time left to fill, it wasn't possible to postpone the fight any longer. I also, on no occasion, expected special treatment from the judges and believe our fight was judged fairly and according to the competition rules in place. The situation also differed from the 720 v Wedgie fight, which is where a lot of people were getting confused and claiming that the judging was inconsistent, however that is a different matter.

The repair time issue centres around the first seven one-on-one fights from the UK champs being in the first show (10am-10.45am), the last two being in the second show (12pm-12.15pm), and the losers’ melees also being in the second show (~12.30pm-12.40pm). Therefore any losing robots in the first seven one-on-ones had from 10.45–12.15 (1.5hrs minimum) to repair any damage, whereas the two losers from the last two one-on-ones only had 15-25 minutes to effect repairs. As I stated, all measures that could be taken to offer more time were taken (rearranging the melees depending on the readiness of competitors) but there comes a time when the fights have to be fought regardless. This is not a dig at the Coopers or the judges for the format, however I have left feedback relating to the issue in the event thread.

So, based on that, the only way I can see a fully-mobile-before-the-fight rule being fairly implemented is to set a fixed minimum repair time (~45m) or to have all fights, such as the ones mentioned, take place in the same show. However I still don't see the need for a rule to be created stipulating this.

I would argue it is reasonable the robot chassis can actually move at the beginning of the fight.

And again I would disagree, considering the limited pit time that can be available at events, and the variable degrees of damage that can be sustained. The only way it could work is universal/equal repair time as mentioned above.

My stance isn’t going to change on the issue, so I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one Craig

[craig_colliass]

Has in practice this ever happened in the UK champs.

"In the UK featherweight championship, you get 1 point just for entering the arena in the group stages. That 1 point can be the difference between making it straight through and having to compete in a play-off . This is especially helpful if you take an absolute battering in a fight and have limited repair time, and it’s beneficial to all competitors, not just those with a particular design/weapon type."

Has anyone with a one wheeled robot made it through to the main competition.

If I do make it to the FW UK champs, and am confronted with a one wheeled machine, I think I might spend three amusing minutes watching it try to get across the arena whilst my machine dose figure of eights just to comply with the rule you do agree with.

I think we can agree to disagree on the points you raised. I am just about to stick the wheels on the lunch box, Pictures to follow.

[Team Invade]

As the rules currently stand, you should be able to put an immobile robot in the arena and get one point for doing so. However, then if the robot is immobile, the 10 second countdown should begin immediately.

I completely understand your situation but a key part of our hobby is not only what happens in the arena but repairing damage between rounds. There is nothing in the rules to state that it is OK to be immobile as long as that was from the last fight.

[Ellis]

A bot which never had the intention of working would get stopped by the other rules, or just on the basis of common sense, from the outset. The question is of robots that are imperfect (newcomer's bots might well have intermittent drive) or machines that are damaged during the same competition, being allowed to enter. I agree with Jamie in that they should. The opponent(s) will 9/10 get the win and the limping bot's builder knows that; everyone is happy. By disallowing dysfunctional robots the opponents get the advantage of scoring higher minimum points by default, the offset between established and newcomer would grow, which isn't fun.

Although a countdown fairly immediately (maybe allow a 10s buffer) to eliminate the half dead robot is reasonable, under any other circumstances they'd be counted out, but I still think they should be allowed to get the point.

[blazerbotics]

I agree with the Explosions lads last post, if you go into the arena without a working drive, the countdown should start immediately. The time (or lack of) between fights is just luck of the draw, some people will always get more time. We had this with LH after the Lipo fire, its just something you have to put up with.

Another point on the rules, which I think came up a few years ago, is when does a flipped robot start being counted out? Surely it should start the instant the robot lands upside down, we've had times when robots have taken longer than 10seconds to self right, even id they are somersaulting and landing back the wrong way, until they land on their wheels and start driving again, they should be being counted out.

[Max]

I know there aren't many if them about but what about a melty brain spinner with only one motor? Should that be counted out instantly because it only has one working motor? What if it was designed to have 2 motors working but one wasn't working, it may still work to some degree bit not be 'as' mobile.
A 2wd robot with one motor broke can still drive in a kinda straight line due to the momentum of the robot, if you kinda pulse it on and off forwards the momentum of the robot makes it go in a reasonably straight line. Skilled operators with vertical spinners can get the bot learning onto one wheel and so drive along in a straight line.
I think you should be able to put in the bot if you want to and it should not be counted as immobile unless it cannot move (ie. both motors are broken or it is flipped on its side etc.)

[Mouldy]

Agree with Alans post. Enter with 1 wheel working and you have 10 seconds to win...

At the same time the "enter the arena to get a point" system falls down here... You could put your robot in the arena without the link in... start the fight and instantly tap out.... you get your point without ever having to move...but that complicates this conversation further.

Id like to consider it similar to the clusterbot rule... if one machines dead... there both dead as its a 50/50 split... surely if one wheels dead... the entire robot should be counted dead and the fight stopped after the count down?

[Garfie489]

Id like to consider it similar to the clusterbot rule... if one machines dead... there both dead as its a 50/50 split... surely if one wheels dead... the entire robot should be counted dead and the fight stopped after the count down?

Again though, its not as simple as that. A 4WD robot can still work perfectly with only 2 wheels working (50% immobile), assuming they are on opposite sides of the robot. Ricochet could even work with only 33% drive.

[Mouldy]

One complete drive side then... use common sense to word it how you like... you know what i meant.

[cliveb]

I actually had this discussion at the NEC. My suggestion was to make it fair on all machines going through, after each fight all robots go into park ferme ( unless a safety issue arises) and is only released after the final fight of that round. It is then returned to park ferme before the next round starts or if it not there in time is disqualified. This means everybody has an equal amount of time to repair and recharge their machine.

I also believe that the judges should be split and sit on 3 sides of the arena and not at 1 table ( like in boxing) resulting in 3 separate views and opinons on the battle.

[maddox10]

A finetuned controleable bunker can win fights.
5 km/h, minimal battery, the brain from a modern quadcopter in well shockmounted 10mm hardox box. Wanna bet it's perfectly controlable and almost invurnable.

If perfect control is such a big issue suddenly, then is my question, who gains anything with it?

[shaneteamtilly]

I have just looked at all the posts and i think the rules should be changed to account for a one wheel drive robot so i propose that the immobilsation rule should not be one side gone your out it should be that the whole robot has to be dead to win that way there is no arguments and if any one thinks that this is wrong think about it if you cant beat a one wheeled drive robot then you deserve to lose i know if that happend to me i would be disapointed but i wouldnt be able to argue and and it makes the rules so much clearer

[Flag Captured]

I'm fairly sure the Americans use a system whereby if the machine is still 'mobile' it's still in - the number of times I've seen last rites swinging about and moving (albeit slowly) to the other machine is quite a fair few now. Not sure whether that's just selective decision making by the judges to make things a better watch for the audience, but as long as the machine can still actively be aggressive, it seems like they're left in.