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[babeth]

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Andrews suggestion has its merits and so does Rogers. So if we combine both suggestions maybe we could suggest a counter where robots can be put on display and roboteers can give answers and explanations when they have time to do it and their robots have been made as safe as possible. Something to think about for the event organisers... mind you, it is only a suggestion.

[fluppet]

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[This is still way off-topic, much of which is my fault; I hope nobody minds too much.]

Roger - the shop counter sounds good, but Im concerned from my experience at past events that the ability of the genuine builders to get anywhere near the machines or roboteers is a bit limited with that kind of arrangement.

I dont for a moment want to put fans off gawping at their favourite machines and getting autographs/robot-funding merchandise off roboteers, but keen children wanting to go whoah, cool and people (Im not ruling youngsters out of this category either) wanting to see how a particular mechanical feature was implemented, for example, are two quite different categories. And they get in each others way.

If the event is quiet/small enough then there wouldnt be a problem, but fighting through a crowd of pre-teens and then feeling guilty about monopolising the roboteers time is awkward. My experience of Debenham (x2), RWX2 and Lakeside is that roboteers dont have much time left on their own to be pestered - but as I attend more events maybe Ill discover Im mistaken. Its especially frustrating when there *are* people whod like to listen to the detailed technical answers of the same kind of question, so the minimum amount of everyones time is wasted, but the youngsters (and parents) hanging around are clearly being bored witless.

I dont want to propose an us and them culture, but the two broad categories of spectators (those whod be as interested if it was WWF - with the same amount of destruction - and those who are interested from an engineering perspective; I know theres cross-over, but you know what I mean) also extend to people hovering around the outside of the pits during intermissions.

I just wondered if trying to handle the two groups separately might be more efficient; a production line, kind of thing. If someone were to give a talk/presentation/poke around robot innards which sounds dull enough to those only there to see destruction (or went on late enough after the event, one evening), only proto-roboteers would attend, and we wouldnt be falling over each other in breaks between fights.

Of course, it does rather rely on someone volunteering to spend a while detailing the wonders of their pride and joy to an admiring and adoring audience, and then have every detail of it nit-picked by the bunch of know-nothings in the Q&A session. :-)

But Ill certainly keep an eye out for Yeovil and try to make my way over there.

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Fluppet

[roger_plant]

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We have not had a problem in the past with controlling the various groups who wish to view the robots in the pits.
I know that there are widely differing interests to cater for including a few (accompanied) disabled children who attend regularly and want their favourite roboteers signatures.
Protecting these from the (sometimes OTT) teenage fans can be a bit trying.

As with other safety issues, using common sense and experience is the answer.

If necessary we will limit the numbers at any one time at the counter to a manageable group.
Any volunteers for Doormen?, only 6 ft 6 rugby players need apply

The alternative idea of organised lectures or talks about robot building is a good one.
These could not be held at the fighting events, we just don€™t have the time.

Ian Watts has been giving such lectures and instruction at various universities and colleges for a while.

I am a qualified instructor/teacher in engineering techniques, but I am inexperienced in the art of teaching.
I may have the engineering and robot building experience that I could share with others but have always been working €œhands on€ rather than teaching or guiding others to do the work.

You may have noticed that my manner when dealing with poorly phrased questions or hecklers is not the best.

It should be possible to develop the idea of €œrobot lectures€ by a few suitable experienced builders.
There are various possibilities for venues for these.

Some of you may be surprised at the true costs for the lecturers involved, when preparation time, travelling and the €œtime out€ from their day job is accounted for.

I am sure something could be worked out if there is sufficient interest.

[jamesb]

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£400-£700 is a starting point for a 2 hour lecture from a famous person.

not that thats a good or bad thing, I have no opinion as it is not me paying those prices, and its not be being paid those prices.

I have been to many shows now, quite a few with no robot to break. If the FRA wanted to look at having a technical Q&A expert (ie, a roboteer with experience) man the desk (which is something I have suggested before, the FRA must have a prominent stand at events) then roboteers and potential roboteers can talk without the fan factor getting in the way too much.

I have been on a 5 man Razer stand before now, and answered very technical questions from very knowledgeable people, only to be interupted by someone wanting to know could Razer kick Kilalots butt? if the FRA stand is there, it is not something young fans will spend much time near, but more interested parties can visit and benefit from talking to the people manning the desk without too much distraction.

just my log on the woodpile.

[fluppet]

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Roger - Id been thinking something relatively informal in the evening of one of the two-day events (gather a crowd in a pub, payment in beer...) but obviously that makes a dent in the social activities of the soul in question, doing something they may well not enjoy doing. Youre quite right that a standalone talk from an expert is an expensive thing, and I should probably stop thinking in terms of liquid remuneration, especially if fitting it in around an event isnt going to work. (Ill trust your judgement on that; the only thing Ive tried to run with substantial organisation has been tiddlywinks tournaments, and obviously health and safety takes up a bit less time...) If youre not having such problems with overcrowding at your events, Ill make an extra special effort to visit Yeovil. :-)

However, Id be more than happy to pay a reasonable fee (although probably not £400 on my own...) to attend a decent talk from an expert. I know the basics - I dont want someone to tell me how tank steering works, for example - but something aimed at someone whos near ready to build but wants to avoid doing something stupid (and expensive) first time out would be very welcome. If it happens, count me in!

James - glad (in a misery loves company kind of way) its not just me whos had this kind of experience. Id certainly make a bee-line for a stand where I could actually talk technical with an expert; Ive been lucky in the past that Ive managed to have reasonably long chats with Andrew Marchant, Rex, Mrs Watts (Ian and the kids tend to be busy) and the Plunderbird boys when theyve been separated from their robots (thanks to all of them), but even so Ive still had to negotiate autograph hunters a lot. Someone freer to talk would be most welcome.

That said, part of my problem is seeing how everything fits together - I have books on how to build these things, but actually having a poke at the innards of something would be very helpful. So long as its put together by someone more competent than me I dont much care which robot it is, so this is kind of a call to those with less well-known robots to make themselves visible, if they will, even if the crowds of pre-teens ignore them - in fact, away from the rich and famous would be better! But I can see the argument for an absence of robot too - whats that? called out every thirty seconds might be as distracting.

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Fluppet

[shredderteam]

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We do run some lectures at Enginuity, mainly aimed at kids though up till this stage at least.
Perhaps if theres enough interest from others we could drop in a couple of sessions for wannabe builders too.

Drop us a line at:
info@robotcrusade.com
if you might be interested in attending something like this, and well see what we can do.

Sam
http://www.robotcrusade.comhttp://www.robotcrusade.com

[typhoon_driver]

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the main problem, as i see it, is that everyone at one of these lectures would be at different stages with their knowledge.

Some wouldnt know what a bosch 750 is whereas others would just want to know some methods for attaching armour. I think perhaps some kind of system to give an indication of how much knowledge is required to understand the lecture would perhaps be an idea............just a thought

[blazerbotics]

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werent there thoughts of running a meal with a roboteer last debenham? members of the public could sit and eat with their favorite roboteers.

[maddox]

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The meal idea sounds like a thing I would like to do.
In any case, I do not have the educational background, so I prefer to stay out of the lecturing spotlight.

On the other hand, robotless roboteers can jump in to explain things about the machines to the public; Most of us know each others machines. Of course there are exceptions.

[fluppet]

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Gary: youre right, theres always going to be a range of levels of experience - although a Q&A session might compensate for too many people being out of sync. Perhaps were looking at several lectures, which of course makes matters much worse for organisation - although starting with the beginners ones and ending with an experts guide might mean that everyone ends up in the last lecture at the same level. I still think you can cover a wide enough range in just one or two talks to be useful to most people - Id accept that Im going to have to sit through some stuff that I know and maybe not understand a few bits, but the subject isnt so complex, once the audience have got past the stage of thinking about building a robot, that people will need much background to handle the more advanced bits of design.

If the roboteers are willing to put up with it, the dinner idea sounds good (and if the public pay for the food it would reduce catering costs). Does make it a bit hard to actually peer at the innards of a robot, but if all the questions are ready in advance there may not be a problem with a post-dinner show-and-tell. It does mean that *everybody* has to put up with the same daft questions, which would be why I thought someone sitting in front of a crowd might be more efficient (although undoubtedly more work for the lecturer). Also a benefit of a talk is that you get to hear someone ask the question you would have asked if youd thought of it, whereas one-on-one people are guaranteed to go away thinking I wish Id thought to say... And as Mario says, it might be easier for a roboteer to jump in and say and I found this completely different solution to a similar problem (or you dont want to do it like that...) in a lecture - if its informal - whereas theyll never know its been discussed in a one-on-one.

It also means that experts in different designs can also give some input, whereas someone set on building a crusher is necessarily going to lose out on some inside knowledge if they end up dining to a spinner driver, for example. I may know roughly how most of the robots work from an indirect viewpoint, but there are questions I wouldnt ask if I wasnt thinking of building a similar design.

When I made the original suggestion I was only really thinking of someone (or even several roboteers) in a post-event pub agreeing to have the serious looking members of the public (which, if you drop the families toddlers only out to see the destruction, I suspect wouldnt be such an enormous number) ply them with food and drink while doing a quick these are the things Ive learnt while building my robot talk - then taking questions. Not really the same as filling a lecture theatre, although since I also hate public speaking I appreciate that its still not going to be the cup of tea of some people.

Im sure Ill pick up a great deal at FRA regional social meets (when theres one which doesnt clash with a tiddlywinks tournament), but I suspect there are enough people out there at my stage of development that it would be possible to push everyone up to a better level of understanding in one go, and stop me having to ask some of the more basic questions.

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Fluppet

[roger_plant]

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There are two problems with the basic ideas of robot building talks so far for me.
I dont drink, and I have special diet needs due to allergies.
This makes the dinner/discussion or a pub talk not realy feasible for me.
Just my input before it gets too developed.

[jamesb]

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I think I see what fluppet is saying here actually, not so much what motor, what battery as most roboteers-to-be know the basics. Its more a case of I have wheels this big, how do I best join them to the motor.

Am I right here fluppet?

This is something I at first didnt know either, and I learnt by attending events, and working in a machine shop. The best way to learn to to have something not work, as you say, its better it didnt work for someone else, and you learn about it from them.

[fluppet]

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Roger: if it helps, I dont drink either - although that I spend so much of my time in pubs is probably an indication that Im weird rather than that you should necessarily feel obliged (fizzy drinks in pubs are expensive, after all). I appreciate that dining constraints are awkward - although I suspect you can get away with bringing something with you to a pub (especially outdoors) more easily than an official restaurant, especially if there are a crowd of us making them money.

Not that I want to put you off lecturing instead!

James - pretty much, yes. Im expecting to get royally slaughtered with my first few robots, but reinventing the wheel while trying to iron out problems seems pointless (and expensive). Overengineer everything is all very well, but there are trade-offs, and people can tell me whats *really* strong enough, whats too heavy, whats impossible to repair once it breaks, and what just doesnt work. If Ive got an engineering problem, I can come up with *a* solution on my own, but if someone else has already field tested the possible solutions to see what works that knowledge is going to be more useful than any mental experiment I can do.

Plus of course the books I have which try to go into details are out of date; whats solid enough in a season 2 robot would be scrap metal today. Watching the Hypno DVD, its scary just how slowly the disk ran when it first appeared. Current knowledge of the state of the art matters a lot. If I have a robot which goes in against Typhoon2/Razer/WBC/Gravity/TaN/Storm2 I expect it to lose, but if I cant at least re-use most of the bits after Ive swept them out of the arena then Ive built it badly.

It used to be said drive it into a brick wall then fix what breaks; these days I suspect if you cant give your robot a fair whack from a sledgehammer you should plan to be taking most of it home in a Dyson.

Im not necessarily at the how do I fit this size wheel to this shaft stage (which might be a bit specific to an individual bot), but there are plenty of things which people have learnt which can be generally applied to lots of designs.

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Fluppet

[jamesb]

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If I have a robot which goes in against Typhoon2/Razer/WBC/Gravity/TaN/Storm2 I expect it to lose

A quick guide on how to beat....

typhoon 2, build storm 2
Razer, build Razer
WBC, build dead metal
Gravity, build a parachute
TAN, build sunblock
storm 2, build typhoon 2.

simple eh?

there is one unbeatable robot however, Napalm, it beats itself before you get chance to.

[s8nsmum]

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if you want to beat storm 2 build typhoon 2, and if you want to beat typhoon 2 build storm 2. How does that work then?

Joe Townsend